Not long ago I encountered two people who were arguing in favor of a libertarian presidential candidate and making the argument that his election would lead to greater subsidiarity in the United States. Neither of these individuals agreed with this candidate’s libertarian philosophy. Both, in fact, saw his philosophy as significantly flawed. Their only argument was that he would be the candidate who would most likely accomplish greater subsidiarity. My interlocutors may have been entirely correct on this point, though I have my doubts that subsidiarity would be a long-term effect of his presidency. There may be those who are confused and think that the Catholic doctrine of subsidiarity is the same as libertarian or other “small government” doctrines common in the United States. I would like to highlight some of the differences between the two.
Some of the most significant of these include the following:
1) Subsidiarity is a communitarian philosophy. In this doctrine the human person cannot be understood apart from his communal nature and his communal existence. Subsidiarity claims that a communal, social and political existence is imposed on the human person by human nature, by the natural law and, ultimately, by God.
For the libertarian, by contrast, the human person is individualistic. The libertarian considers the communal, social and political aspects of human existence to be the result of human free choice and considers these aspects of human existence to be created by man rather than by God.
2) Because subsidiarity claims that human nature is communal the same doctrine claims that our obligations to the community are imposed by nature, rather than by free agreement. So, for example, the authority of the government comes from God and the natural law rather than the free consent of the governed. The people must obey whether they have consented or not. A just salary or wage is determined by the employee’s financial need (provided the employer has sufficient resources to pay an amount which meets this need and still have his own financial needs and the needs of sustaining his business met) rather than by a free agreement between employer and employee. We must contribute to the common good of the community (town, country, nation, etc.) in which we live. Even if we do not wish to do so, we can justly be compelled against our will to do so and the government can compel us to this even if we have never consented to the government’s existence or right to do so.
In contrast, the libertarian does not see the human person as under any obligation which he has not placed himself under. So, for example, the libertarian would argue that government must be based on the consent of the governed. Free agreement between employer and employee would be sufficient for a salary or wage to be just. We have no obligation to contribute to the good of the community unless we have first consented to contributing to that good or, at least, consented to the government’s existence.
3) According to subsidiarity the good is to be pursued communally under the direction of and, if necessary, compulsion by the government.
For libertarianism the good is to be pursued individually or by private organization that individuals have freely joined. Government exists merely to leave individuals free to pursue the good rather than direct them to do so.
4) The doctrine of subsidiarity holds that the common good has priority over individual freedom.
Individual freedom is part of the common good but it is neither the whole of the common good nor its most important part. The spiritual and moral well being of the community and its individual members is the greatest good and takes precedence over individual freedom. The material well being of the community also takes precedence over individual freedom. The overall order and proper functioning of society is of great importance. Freedom is a good within these limits. Although certain restrictions on freedom can themselves impede these higher goods being attained, and when freedom is restricted the good attained must be proportionate to its limitations of freedom, freedom is only a secondary and contextualized good. It is the duty of government to pursue and promote the common good as a whole.
In contrast, the libertarian holds individual freedom to be the highest good or, at the very least, the highest good which the government should protect and promote. For the libertarian, the pursuit of higher goods is to be a matter of individual free choice rather than of government compulsion and direction.
5) Subsidiarity understands relations between human persons, between the individual and the community, primarily in terms of moral obligations and secondarily in terms of rights. The role of government is to enforce obligations. The government must not simply restrict sins of commission (such as murder) but also present sins of omission (such as failing to contribute to the material support of the community) by compelling individuals into pertinent obligatory actions.
Libertarian doctrine understands relations between human persons and between the individual and the community in terms of rights and does not accept obligations aside from those who have been freely consented to. He or she understands the role of government as limited to the protection of rights. For this theory the government must only restrict sins of commission and must ignore sins of omission.
6) Subsidiarity argues that the route to the common good should be left to the most local or smallest level of society that can effectively look after the common good. To the extent that a town can look after the common good the county should leave matters alone. To the extent that a county can look after the common good the higher government of state, province or nation should not interfere. I can think of two major reasons for this.
The first is that particular situations and particular needs are unique and best addressed by those who are most competent to understand and respond to this uniqueness. Related to this point is that responses to problems must be “organic” rather than rationalistically conceived and uniform plans to impose utopia. In subsidiarity local government control perfects the real where modern big government centralization attempts to create a false ideal.
The second reason is that there should not be more government control and more restrictions on freedom than are necessary for the common good while freedom still remains essentially subordinate as already said.
The libertarian, on the other hand, wants to maximize freedom. He does not want more local government because it is more conducive to effective government control. The libertarian wants, rather, to minimize government control as such.
7) Subsidiarity recognizes that there are cases in which more government, even more centralized government, can be necessary for the common good. The common good is prioritized over localism even while it is held that localism is often more conducive to the common good.
In contrast, the libertarian is opposed to increases in government and increases in centralized government as such.
8) Subsidarity is suspicious of centralized big business even more than it is suspicious of centralized big government. Subsidiarity would, in fact, prefer an expansion of government to the expansion of big business. There are multiple reasons for this.
In the first place it is the nature of government to be concerned for the common good and to act in accord with public interest. Not every government or holder of government office does so but such is the basic nature of government. No doubt many of the worst examples of government result from misunderstanding the common good and public interest rather than from pure selfish concern. Business, by its nature, exists largely for private interest and it is the proper nature of business to be concerned for the common good, public interest, and employees as well as business owners. However, the case remains that government is, by its nature, solely concerned with the common good and public interest while private interest is, by the nature of business, a major concern of business.
In the second place it is inevitable that either government controls money or money controls government. Building on the above, government control of money is in the public interest as well as the interests of the common good. If business (“money”) controls government, it can capture the private good, and business, particularly big business, which is largely unregulated by government, will create a plutocracy/plutonomy. A proper economy is one in which there are strong government regulations of private business and of the market as opposed to both an unregulated market and a socialist command economy.
The libertarian does not oppose big business. In fact he or she often celebrates it. While subsidiarity favors localism in all aspects of life, the libertarian favors localism specifically in regard to government (public subsidiarity), but tends to reject localism in business (private subsidiarity). A libertarian may even go so far as to hold that the ability of business (“money”) to control the government is an example of human freedom taking priority over government control of peoples’ lives.
9) For subsidiarity, freedom is primarily freedom to live a Catholic and moral life, to pursue authentic cultural goods and to live in a community of life with one’s family, friends and neighbors. Economic freedom is of relatively low priority. Material wellbeing to pursue these higher goods is necessary and both this material wellbeing and the pursuit of these higher goods can necessitate placing restrictions on economic freedom.
Libertarians, on the other hand, are mostly preoccupied with economic freedom.
10) Subsidiarity holds government and authority, and our subordination to it, to be fundamentally good even while affirming the value of a high degree of freedom and whole recognizing that there can be excessive and tyrannous government control. Without subordinating either individuals or communities to the state, subsidiarity considers the existence of the state and of authority to be part of the common good (not merely means to the common good) and so, insofar as they are part of the common good, to be ends in themselves.
The libertarian holds that government, the state and authority are entirely means to the preservation of freedom and of individual rights and in no way as goods in themselves. They may even hold government to be “a necessary evil” rather than a positive good. Some even hope for a capitalistic withering away of the state.
11) Finally, subsidiarity sees human relations primarily as cooperative. Part of the communal nature of the human person is to live in charity, benevolence and mutual cooperation with others. This is not to deny that the effects of original sin often lead us to fail to live up to our nature in this regard. This is not to argue for a pure altruism and deny legitimate self-interest, even in some cases at the expense of others (as when two people compete for a job). But it is to affirm that cooperation rather than competition is the basic reality of human relations. The role of government is specifically to further and to enforce such cooperation for the sake of the common good.
Libertarianism understands human relationships in a basically competitive way. The market is seen as a ground of competition.
I do not see this list of difference as being exhaustive and I certainly have not been able to develop any of the points mentioned at the length. However, I hope piece will be a useful summary of some of the major differences between the two doctrines and can aid and pinpoint why those who wish to implement and justify authentic localism and pursue the common good cannot turn to libertarian theories.
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at 11:15 AM
Lots of great nuggets here!
One question: I have heard the notion attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas that “government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed.” Is this a misattribution? I suspect that Thomas would have meant it in a greatly different sense from the average American of any stripe today; rather than meaning that the law is only the law because we accept it, it would merely mean that the community (not individuals except inasmuch as they can choose to migrate to another community) gets to choose a particular form of government and members to carry out its functions. It is 1) general, not relating to particular laws but to the authority of any particular governer to govern in the first place, 2) of the community rather than the individual, and 3) something basically good written into the nature of community that flows from the nature of man, a consent of particular choice among options and not a consent of choice between government and no government. If I’m understanding correctly. I’d be interested in any comment you have on the matter.
There are several excellent and interesting points touched on here (in the article) that I’d like to comment on or elaborate on in various ways, but I’ll do that somewhere that won’t dominate a combox — my ramblings have a bad habit of dropping below the level of comprehensibility required for public discourse, let alone public discourse on others’ turf.
at 2:10 PM
Scott, I would look over the following article:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/business/fr94302.htm
I would also check a number of the articles on this website, particularly those included under the Catholic social teaching heading, which can be found under the label of economics near the top of the homepage. I would particularly recommend the one critiquing the Acton Institute and another called “Individualism and the State” (I think in two parts).
Also Leo XIII Diuturnum was clear in teaching that political authority is from God and in condemning that the authority of government has its source in the consent of the governed.
at 2:53 PM
Under point 8 you fail to mention that one of the primary regulators of private business ought to be guilds of people and businesses in a particular industry. These guilds are best fit to regulate the industry because they actually do the work. Other than that, it looks great!
at 4:08 PM
I like this article because it was thoughtful and well-elaborated and is well worth reading. Nevertheless, I do entertain some serious doubts about it. For one thing, I do wonder whether the author is to some extent comparing distributism according to what it is supposed to be ideally, wth libertarianism according to its very imperfect expressions. To take another example, and far more importantly, I don’t think the author has fully articulated just how high a percentage of the time civil government is run by evil people to enrich themselves & their cronies, and to do harm and evil to others (as opposed to trying to further the common good). Didn’t St. Augustine refer to government as a “band of robbers”? Yes, the gov’t is ordained of God, but the great majority of the time, God seemingly has ordained the gov’t to be our cross to bear. One can acknowledge the pre-eminence of the good of the whole, while nevertheless still remaining deeply sceptical of, and trying to minimize the influence of, civil gov’t and its coercive powers, precisely in order to further the common good.
at 2:50 AM
This extended post is in response to Scott’s question about St. Thomas Aquinas. The quoted text, “government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed”, as far as I know is not from Aquinas. However, it does represent an interpretation of Aquinas regarding political authority, but only if it is properly understood to stipulate secondary cause rather than highest or ultimate cause (which is God Himself). Now, the question of political authority in democracy is discussed by the eminent Thomist, Yves R. Simon, in Philosophy of Democratic Government.
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In section III, Simon devotes a chapter to each of the three main theories of authority in democratic government: the Coach-Driver Theory, Divine Right, and the Transmission Theory. Simon attributes the transmission theory to Aquinas. He says, “Another theory holds that the first bearer of civil authority is not the king or any governor but the people as a whole, the civil multitude. Whenever there is a distinct governing personnel, men have done two things and not one, as in the case of the pope: they have designated the ruling person, and they have transmitted to him the power given by God to the people. Let us emphasize that transmitting does not mean the same as giving. To say that God alone gives authority is the same as to say that God alone can bind the conscience of man.”
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Simon continues to explain that “The transmission theory is commonly attributed to Thomas Aquinas. True, the question does not belong to his Problematik and is not treated explicitly in any part of his work. The best approximation to a treatment of it is found in the Treatise on Laws of the Summa theologica. After having shown that law is a product of the reason — more precisely, a premise of practical argumentation (a.1) — and that it is essentially relative to the common good (a.2), Aquinas poses the question Whether the reason of any man is competent to make laws? The answer is commanded by the principle of proportion between end and cause. Since the end is the common good, the efficient cause ought to be, proportionately, the multitude or a person “holding the part of,” “acting instead of,” “being in charge of,” the multitude. “Now to order anything to the common good belongs either to the whole people or to someone who is the vicegerent of the whole people. Hence the making of a law belongs either to the whole people or to a public personage who has care of the whole people.” In a later question of the same treatise he shows that custom can obtain the force of law; an objection to this statement is derived from the public character of the lawmaker: “. . . the framing of laws belongs to those public men whose business it is to govern the community . . . but custom grows by the acts of private individuals here is the answer of Aquinas (trans. A. C. Pegis):
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“The people among whom a custom is introduced may be of two conditions. For if they are free, and able to make their own laws, the consent of the whole people expressed by a custom counts far more in favor of a particular observance than does the authority of the sovereign, who has not the power to frame laws, except as representing the people. Therefore, although each individual cannot make laws, yet the whole people can. If, however, the people have not the free power to make their own laws, or to abolish a law made by a higher authority, nevertheless, among such a people a prevailing custom obtains the force of law insofar as it is tolerated by those to whom it belongs to make laws for that people; because, by the very fact that they tolerate it, they seem to approve of that which is introduced by custom.” (ST i-ii, 97. 3, ad 3)
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Accordingly, Simon observes that, “There cannot be any doubt that the transmission theory is in full agreement with the notion of political authority expressed here by Aquinas. These texts are most simply and directly interpreted by the theory that power belongs primarily to the people, who can use it to make laws for themselves, and that, if and when power lies in the hands of a distinct person, this person has the character of “one who substitutes for the people.” The expression gerens vicem might suggest the coach-driver theory; but this is ruled out by Aquinas’ general views on obedience and authority. Thus it can be said that his only existent expressions on the subject of the origin of political power support the transmission theory. Yet, because these expressions amount merely to a few sentences, because the problem is not fully disengaged, and because the alternative solution (i.e., the designation theory) is not envisaged, to state with no qualification that the transmission theory is that of Aquinas would perhaps be more than the texts warrant.”
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And, one last excerpt from Simon: “But the transmission theory is supported in unmistakable terms by the great commentator on Aquinas — Cajetan. Besides a short commentary on the above-quoted passage of the Treatise on Laws, the ideas of Cajetan are found in two “Opuscula.”
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Simon’s discussion of the transmission theory continues with Cajetan and then on to the very relevant and important views of Cardinal Bellarmine and Suarez.
at 4:47 AM
Subsidiarity goes along with Solidarity which the libertarians neglect. The essence of libertarianism is Sartre’s Hell is Other People.
They view other people as obstacles to be overcome. Thus insistence on freedom from interference.
Also, they have no concept of common good hence the only harm can be physical hurt or commercial fraud and thus no notion of
moral harm. To restrain other people, it requires growth of a centralized state, more so the decay of solidarity produces
greater lawlessness and crime. Thus “starting from absolute freedom, they conclude in absolute despotism” as Dostoevsky put it.
at 6:10 AM
There seem to be several misinterpretations of libertarianism running through this article, but the only point I want to bring up is the statement that our “spiritual well being” takes precedence over freedom. It seems to me that this is a very dangerous notion, because government ultimately can’t make us better off spiritually, and the only way it can even attempt to do so is establish a state religion. Everything else would be covered under moral well being, which was also mentioned. So it seems to me that either the author is essentially equating moral well being with spiritual well being, or else has very totalitarian views on government.
at 6:25 AM
Mr. Heckmann is right. We cannot underestimate the potential for a centralized state becoming just what Dostoevsky called an “absolute despotism” (thank you, Mr. Glan). It is enough to cite the Bolsheviks as an example of state-committed evil in the name of the common good. So the state is a double-edged sword, which can be used for evil and for good. It all depends on the virtue of those in authority. This is a point that needs to be stressed.
Also, it seems to me that subsidiarity IS opposed to the centralized, unitary state, which has historically fought localism, the aristocracy, and the church, as alternate sources of authority that it could not tolerate. This is, I think, what is often meant by the concept of the modern state as a form of perpetual revolution.
As for the common good, its definition is essential. But it cannot in fact be defined with any authority in a society that is not metaphysically fused; that does not share a common metaphysics or a theology; for which there is no orthodoxy. This is a fundamental problem of pluralism and diversity. Can subsidiarity work outside of the largely homogeneous Christian nations of Europe? But given the erosion of Christendom there, is that even possible? Is libertarianism the best we can hope for in the US, given the materialist and utilitarian basis of our purely “empirical” society (cf R.M. Weaver)?
at 7:31 AM
Is libertarianism the best we can hope for in the US…?
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Despite the many individual adherents of traditional libertarian views here in the U.S., libertarianism “as a movement” has been in serious trouble for many years. That is, left leaning or big-government libertarians (an oxymoron) have been on the ascendancy (Cato libertarians, Horowitz’s Center for Individual Rights, etc.) and merging with the neocons. I would not be surprised if this phony left-libertarian movement totally eclipses paleo-libertarianism. Thus, I suspect that traditional libertarianism may not even be an option of last resort in an increasingly secular society.
at 10:09 AM
My response is to Scott. You said “government ultimately can’t make us better off spiritually, and the only way it can even attempt to do so is establish a state religion.” This is simply not the case… In the article above, the proper relationship between the units of society, the common good and government establishes the fact that all of these entities should advance a morality that radiates throughout the human race and therefore “make us better off spiritually.”
at 10:18 AM
That’s why I pointed out that aside from establishing a religion, the state can only improve moral well-being, which the author listed as a separate item. And why I said the author might be simply equating spiritual and moral well being.
at 1:17 PM
Question: Is our American form of republican government the best available way to direct the government to promote the “good,” as that “good” is indicated by the outcome of elections, or is there some other way that would be acceptable to the American people?
at 3:42 PM
Ben Yonan,
Thank you for posting the Yves Simon. If I may add, there are also two different (at least) versions of the Transmission theory. Suarez would hold “pure democracy” as being a natural form of government and it is rule by many, few or one that is a purely human determination of government into another form. Whereas others would hold that natural law demands that some hiearchy be established, when a government of many (polity, republic), few (aristocracy) or one (monarchy), such that “pure democracy” is not a natural form of goverment, though among the three forms list each is natural as a proper determination of the natural law.
at 5:05 PM
Ben Yonan,
Thanks, that’s probably where whatever I’d heard came from ultimately — and as expected in any case, much more sophisticated than the end idea that gets punted around today. Definitely food for thought in there, since it ties it back to the basis of authority without reducing it to the will of the people.
Joshua Scott, regarding this: “It seems to me that this is a very dangerous notion, because government ultimately can’t make us better off spiritually, and the only way it can even attempt to do so is establish a state religion.”
I’d say that actually depends more on how it’s done (and whether the society is sufficiently non-pluralistic not to revolt), or at any rate on what you mean by “make” in that sentence. For example, if the government says, “Everyone shall say three Hail Marys publicly before beginning work for the day,” next to nobody is going to benefit spiritually from it both because you can’t force belief and because there’s no spiritual benefit in saying prayers to be seen by men; but it’s something quite different if they say, “Because we believe this Church has the Truth of God, although we will not attempt to force our citizens to believe, we will support this Church’s work and our laws will support its moral teaching.”
Obviously, this doesn’t even begin to work unless 1) the society on the whole is amenable to it and 2) the Church is willing to give it a shot carefully (very carefully, given the trouble the Church has got into with government involvement in the past millenia or so). (A possible 3rd condition for it to work well might be that those who don’t want to be part of such a society are free to leave and have their own society elsewhere; debating local governments, secessions and peaceful coexistence of multiple societies in the world that differ on crucial matters is a topic in and of itself.) But the notion that a government that would support a particular religion cannot and must not even be considered is, as far as I know, an exagerration of the American solution to religious infighting — a valid solution and even (providing it’s not twisted beyond comprehension) a fairly good one when a society is basically pluralistic, but not necessarily the universal ideal given that at the end of the day some notion* about our spiritual well-being must be right and the rest must not be.
*This single “notion” is meant to encompass all of the more internal variations between, say, different religious orders that all follow the theological and moral doctrine and religious authority of the same Church, not treat such different flavors as though they were on the same level as different religions with different theologies and/or authorities. I don’t know why I feel the need to include this disclaimer; it’s not as though anyone who’s reading clearly should think I meant that only one order of monks is valid rather than that only one whole religion is right, but the internet has made me paranoid in intellectual discussion.
at 5:33 PM
In my post regarding Yves Simon, et al., I forgot to add that the statement, “government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed,” is also part of the Natural Law argument of the American Declaration of Independence. As we know, the Declaration states, “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”
at 5:46 PM
Joshua, you are correct regarding variations in the transmission theory. St. Robert Bellarmine rules out direct democracy. He has no particular example of a direct democracy in mind, but he says that just as the nature of a society demands that there be political authority, so it would demand that political authority be intrusted to the hands of a distinct governing personnel. This is said in the context of what is required for the common good. (cf. Y.R. Simon)
at 6:08 PM
dmiehls asks Is our American form of republican government the best available way to direct the government to promote the “good,” as that “good” is indicated by the outcome of elections, or is there some other way that would be acceptable to the American people?
First, my initial response would be to make a distinction between republican government as defined by the Constitution, according to original intent, and the kind of government we now have. The two are very different systems. The federal government now is actually no longer a federal government — it is a national government. Republicanism has been broken down and the so-called federal government is in a state of anarchy, that is, it does whatever it pleases. It is out of control and largely uncontrollable.
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This brings me to my next point. John Adams said,
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” This is the key issue. For our original Constitutional government to work, which includes voting and selecting political representatives, and promoting the genuine common good, there must be a moral and spiritual revival in America. Anything short of a moral and spiritual revival most assuredly means a future of totalitarian rule, perpetual war, endless abortions, and national bankruptcy.
at 7:12 AM
Scott, The idea that the authority of government finds its origin in the consent of the governed has been officially condemned by the Church. In his encyclical Diuturnum Pope Leo XIII was quite clear. He wrote:
“Indeed, very many men of more recent times, walking in the footsteps of those who in a former age assumed to themselves the name of philosophers,[2] say that all power comes from the people; so that those who exercise it in the State do so not as their own, but as delegated to them by the people, and that, by this rule, it can be revoked by the will of the very people by whom it was delegated. But from these, Catholics dissent, who affirm that the right to rule is from God, as from a natural and necessary principle.”
at 7:20 AM
Joshua Scott, The state can actively work to create conditions which will aid in the spiritual life and which further the work of the Church without imposing Catholicism.
Vatican II taught that a right understanding of religious freedom “leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ”, that the religious freedom of non-Catholics must be circumscribed “within due limits” and “provided just public order is observed.” This is hardly unlimited freedom.
Vatican II is also clear that the purpose of religious freedom is not so that the individual may do whatever he does or does not wish but, rather, that religious freedom exists precisely to aid individuals to come to a realization of Catholic truth:
“It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom.”
I would recommend reading Leo XIII’s encyclical Immortale Dei (On the Christian Constitution of States) and Pius XI’s encyclical Quas Primas. One of Leo XIII encyclicals on the Church in the United States taught that the American system which gave freedom to the Church was acceptable but that a system in which the Church was supported by the state would be more ideal. I do not have time at present to find an exact quote but you can find his encyclicals online.
Father Basile Valuet O.S.B. has written an extensive work in French in which he shows that not only was Vatican II’s teaching on religious liberty not opposed to the doctrine of a Catholic state but that it was made clear during the sessions of the Council that its teaching was entirely compatible with a Catholic state. For Vatican II religious freedom for non-Catholics would be, ideally, freedom from coercion for non-Catholics within a Catholic state and within the other conditions which I have quoted above.
After Vatican II Pope Paul VI decided that the Church would not seek such official status under current historical cirmcumstances. It must be kept in mind that at this period it was necessary to ally with non-Catholics against communism and that the existing officially Catholic governments at that period (such as Franco’s Spain and Salazar’s Portugal) were far from model governments and it was in the best interests of the Church not to be associated with such governments, even though these governments had been the most acceptable viable options within their own countries (i.e. Franco and the Spanish nationalists, for all their flaws and for all that was done wrong during the Spanish Civil War, were far better than their anti-clerical rivals during the same war who were guilty of far worse evil).
at 7:28 AM
Thymoleonatus, Subsidiarity, properly understood cannot be opposed to the Church. If there was such opposition subsidiarity would have to be an error.
In regard to opposition to the centralized state I would distinguish between subsidiarity and what I will call “localism”. The principle of subsidiarity claims that regulation and control should occur at the most local level at which such regulation and control for the common good can be effectively accomplished and also that more local control is more usually going to be more effective. So if a more central authority is needed, in some cases, to effectively accomplish the necessary regulation and control for the common good there is no opposition between subsidiarity and central control.
I would call “localism” an attitude which is opposed to all central control as such. Such an attitude does not prioritize the common good but prioritizes local control.
at 7:44 AM
“Authority” is, and always has been, irrelevant. Political power comes from the muzzle of a gun. Those with them have always advanced their interests at the expense of those without.
at 8:16 AM
Furthermore, the state never has been, and never will be, for the purpose of the common good. For those with power, the common good is a euphemism for the good of the few at the expense of the many
at 9:45 AM
Chad, That sounds like the statement of an anarchist.
at 10:47 AM
Ross Heckmann, I do not deny that government can be run by evil and self-interested people. I do not even deny that this is frequently the case. I would mention that a number of distinctions must be added in to such reflections, for example: there can be a legitimate self interested combined with a concern for the common good (as opposed to selfishness), not all selfish concerns will harm the common good (immoral as they are), political rulers can do evil while believing it to be in the common good and so on. I do not suppose you would deny these distinctions.
Once all these distinctions have been made I can agree that it is only a minority of political rulers who will properly understand the common good and have a true interest in pursuing it.
I would add a number of other considerations. The primary one is that, for all the selfishness and lack of concern for the common good found in government such flaws are not a problem unique to political rulers. There is a common (and problematic attitude) which assumes government and political rulers to be uniquely lacking in virtue. I absolutely challenge such an assumption.
While I can agree that political rulers are often selfish, lacking in virtue, unconcerned for the common good or do not rightly understand the common good I would insist that the same is true of those in most spheres of human life-business, education, and so on. How many corrupt businesses are there? How many professional athletes use steroids? The flaws of governments and of political rulers are the same effects of original sin that are seen in much of the rest of humanity.
In light of this I would stress that the basic purpose of government is the common good, while many private sector organizations (such as business) exist to a considerable degree for private interest. And so I would argue that a political ruler motivated only by self-interest is more likely to work for the common good than a businessman motivated only by self-interest. The political ruler has a certain vested interest in the overall good of the political community, if he does too much to violate the common good of society he might very well be overthrown. A businessman has no vested interest in the common good of society. He may even be able to make more money if the overall condition of society deteriorates.
It would seem that, as a general rule, political rulers lacking in virtue have more to motivate them to pursue the common good out of pure self interest than do businessmen.
This is just one example, but I will not multiply examples as my article referred specifically to government and business.
I am under no illusions that government is (as a rule, there are always the notable exceptions) a domain of unique virtue. What I insist on is that, as a whole, it is not a domain of unique vice (at least in comparison with most of the private sector). And so, to return to a point in my article, if there is a choice between business controlling government or government controlling business I would, again as a general rule, prefer the latter.
I have been reading a book recently which makes the point that it is an error to see the interests of society as a whole as being the same as the interests of the market. Society must be concerned with the just distribution of property, as well as the greater good of society. The market is concerned with the “bottom line” of company profits. The economy, and especially the market, is not the central concern of society and, in fact, exists specifically to serve more important concerns. Control of government by business means control of society by the market rather than control of the market by society.
Traditionally businessmen were not those in control of political power, but rather such control was had by the aristocratic, judicial and military classes. Business was the concern of the middle class. One of the problems with a capitalist society is that it leads to plutocracy, the businessmen (due to their wealth rather than to their aristocratic ancestry or their public service in the law or the military) become the leaders of society and dominate the government.
One of the biggest forms of government corruption is specifically found in the influence which the money power of big business had over politicians. If business were properly subordinated to government and if government has a proper degree of control over business (and other aspects of the common good) this could lead to political figures being less dependent on big business (for example for political campaigns) and so actually reduce government corruption.
My point is not that I believe that most political rulers have the necessary degree of virtue, but that much of private sector is not any better in this regard and that, for all the flaws of political rulers, as a general rule we should not give our trust to businessmen rather than to political rulers.
at 10:53 AM
James, history indicates that a voluntary society (anarchy)is as unattainable as a virtuous state. Therefore, I advocate no such thing. However, conferring divine legitimacy on perpetual theft, slavery, and murder (always in the name of the common good)does give me pause.
at 11:18 AM
“such flaws are not a problem unique to political rulers.”
Agreed. However, business professionals are limited to just fraud, whereas political rulers also avail themselves to force or extortion.
“It would seem that, as a general rule, political rulers lacking in virtue have more to motivate them to pursue the common good out of pure self interest than do businessmen”
Such manifestations of Stockholm Syndrome that led to so much anti-Catholic prejudice in America.
at 11:23 AM
While theft, slavery and murder have been imposed by governments at different times I fail to see how any of these are universal to governments (or even true of the usual behavior of a large majority of governments) unless one seriously misunderstands the terms. I would ask for examples (other than such obvious ones as Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia).
at 11:24 AM
Chad, I am familiar with the meaning of the term Stockholm Syndrome but please explain the way in which you are using it in this context.
at 11:28 AM
“If business were properly subordinated to government and if government has a proper degree of control over business (and other aspects of the common good) this could lead to political figures being less dependent on big business (for example for political campaigns) and so actually reduce government corruption.”
Wrong again. When government regulates buying and selling, the first thing bought and sold is government! All you are really asking for is more bureaucrats to pay kickbacks to!
at 11:33 AM
Also please explain the relation you are claiming to anti-Catholic prejudice in America.
at 12:09 PM
In much the same way as kidnapping victims purportedly identify with private criminals that hold them hostage, the state’s apologists tend to identify with the public criminals to which they are bound.
Anti-Catholic prejudice in America almost always involves a belief that the Catholic faith is antithetical to citizenship in a republic. This was the position of the Know-Nothings in the 19th Century.
at 12:11 PM
You are essentially confessing to that charge
at 12:30 PM
Chad, How am I confessing to the charge? Explain what charge you are making, what you mean and then I will say whether and why I agree or disagree.
at 1:03 PM
The charge was that of the Know-Nothings (not mine). The Know-Nothing Party (Ca. 1850-160) asserted that Catholics were dangerously anti-democratic, the ally of tyranny, the enemy of prosperity and secretly planned to subjugate the United States through and influx of Catholic immigrants.
So, when you make statements such as
“The idea that the authority of government finds its origin in the consent of the governed has been officially condemned by the Church.” don’t be surprised when it provokes anti-Catholic reactions
at 1:04 PM
Baresel says The idea that the authority of government finds its origin in the consent of the governed has been officially condemned by the Church. In his encyclical Diuturnum Pope Leo XIII was quite clear.
Pope Leo XIII is talking about those who deny the ultimate source of authority by asserting that the people are truly “sovereign”. However, Baresel fails to make the necessary distinction between ultimate and proximate causes of authority. The proximate cause of authority in democratic government is the body politic that recognizes from whence authority originates.
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I suspect Baresel may be having difficulty in this area because he does not believe in the legitimacy of democratic government. That remains to be clarified.
at 2:04 PM
In regard to the question of democratic government. I believe that it is entirely legitimate for the people to elect the members of government. However Leo XIII is clear on this point that in such a system the voters select the members of government but that the voters do not give them the right to govern. He teaches, again in Diuturnum:
“It is of importance, however, to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the multitude, without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic doctrine. And by this choice, in truth, the ruler is designated, but the rights of ruling are not thereby conferred. Nor is the authority delegated to him, but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined upon.”
I accept the legitimacy of “democracy” if by this is meant the legitimacy of the people electing holders of government office. But I insist that non-democratic governments are just as legitimate, that there is no natural right to democracy (though there can be a right to democracy under the secular law of a given nation) and that even in a democracy the people do not confer on the government the right to govern.
I could summarize by distinguishing between democracy as an organization of government in which the people elect the holders of government office (which I fully accept as legitimate and even as having certain advantages) as opposed to a modern philosophy of democracy which claims that the people have a right to democratic participation and that government authority originates from the consent of the governed (which philosophy I absolutely reject).
In regard to a distinction between the first cause and the proximate cause of political authority I would make a distinction between the nature of community and the free will of either the community or the individuals making up the community. If you want to argue that God is the first cause of government authority through the proximate cause of the nature of both the individual and of the community (so that the free consent of the governed is not relevant) I will simply point out that this is not the issue which I am addressing.
What I do dispute is that “the consent of the governed” (consent implying the free will of the of the community or of its members rather than their nature) is a source of political authority. The will of the people and the freedom of the people are not the source of governmental authority, but this does not exclude a refined understand of the way in which the nature of the person and of the community is involved in the question of political authority as a proximate cause.
I am sorry but the statement which Leo XIII identifies as erroneous is almost identical to what is affirmed in the Declaration of Independence.
at 2:11 PM
Chad, In regard to the charge of the Know-Nothings I would refer to my most recent post. Unfortunately the American tradition (or a significant element of it) equates with tyranny a legitimate emphasis on the supremacy of governmental authority over freedom and on the proper submission to government, as well as a defense of autocratic government AS ONE LEGITIMATE FORM OF GOVERNMENT.
at 2:17 PM
Chad, In regard to Stockholm Syndrome I would point out your circular argumentation. You hold government to be a captor and so assume that any defense of government is a defense of one’s captor. You must first prove that government is a captor. A desire to be subordinate to legitimate authority is a sign of a healthy personality. If you mean to argue that most governments are captors this is a matter that we can discuss. By arguments in favor of government mentioned above are a defense of the nature of government, not of the abuse of government power.
Government as such is a good and a desire to be subject to a right use of government authority is healthy.
Studies have been done showing that anti-authoritarian personality and authoritarian personalities are quite similar. The authoritarian personality wants excessive control over others while the anti-authoritarian personality does not want legitimate control over the self, but both tendencies originate in the same psychological makeup and the same desire for excessive control (whether over one’s own life or over the lives of others). I would also mention defiant disorder as another psychological problem associated with opposition to authority.
at 3:17 PM
I might add that the problem with the Know-Nothings was the philosophy of government to which they adhered rather than the Catholic defense of authority.
at 3:29 PM
Baresel says “What I do dispute is that “the consent of the governed” (consent implying the free will of the of the community or of its members rather than their nature) is a source of political authority.” However, as we shall see below, Beresel’s statement is an inadequate representation concerning the source of political authority.
In response, I must say that the origin of the state is by way of the divinely instituted social nature of man. The actual coming into existence and founding of the legal order of justice does not happen without the mediation of purely human and natural factors. While it is morally necessary, it is still the free decisions of men uniting themselves to a unitas ordinis that is actually the immediate cause of the existence of the state.
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Thus, as we see above, the nature of the “consent of the governed” properly understood. However, the closest Beresel gets to talking about human reality is a very general and non-informative statement that says, “this does not exclude a refined understand of the way in which the nature of the person and of the community is involved in the question of political authority as a proximate cause.” More to the point, however, is Vatican II’s statement, which teaches that rulers govern with the consent of the governed: “The political community and the public authority are based on human nature and so belong to an order established by God; nevertheless, the choice of political regimes and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens” (Gaudium et spes, no. 76). Thus, the “free decision of the citizens” constitutes the immediate cause of political authority over the community. We must also keep in mind, in consequence, that political authority is not given “directly” by God to the ruler or rulers of the community, as was the case with Israel during biblical times.
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Furthermore, the manner in which Baresel makes a distinction between human nature and free will of the community is misleading at best. St. Robert Bellarmine gives a correct expression: “It is obvious that it [political authority] rests with the people as a whole to decide whether they should have a king, or consuls, or other magistrates. Furthermore, the people can change their government from a monarchy to an aristocracy or democracy or the other way round. It is quite true that all power comes from God, but that of temporal princes is derived from God, not immediately but through the consent of human wills.”
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I will add that “consent of the governed” or “consent of human wills” accounts for the difference between tyranny and legitimate government.
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Next, Baresel states, “I am sorry but the statement which Leo XIII identifies as erroneous is almost identical to what is affirmed in the Declaration of Independence.” However, Baresel has not only misinterpreted what is the particular political theory that Pope Leo XIII condemns, but likewise misinterprets the Declaration of Independence. For example, in another place Baresel explicitly denies that the American Declaration of Independence incorporates traditional natural law doctrine. To the contrary, Pope John Paul II affirms the sound moral values of the Declaration. Here are excerpts from John Paul II’s APOSTOLIC JOURNEY TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, HOLY MASS AT THE LOGAN CIRCLE, HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II. Philadelphia; Wednesday, 3 October 1979:
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“(2) Philadelphia is the city of the Declaration of Independence, that remarkаble document, containing a solemn attestation of the equality of all human beings, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, expressing a “firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”. These are the sound moral principles formulated by your Founding Fathers and enshrined forever in your history. In the human and civil values that are contained in the spirit of this Declaration there are easily recognized strong connections with basic religious and Christian values. A sense of religion itself is part of this heritage. The Liberty Bell which I visited on another occasion proudly bears the words of the Bible: “Proclaim liberty throughout the land” (Lev 25 :10). This tradition poses for all future generations of America a noble challenge: “One Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”.
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“(4) How then can a Christian, inspired and guided by the mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption of Christ, strengthen his or her own values and those that are embodied in the heritage of this nation? The answer to that question, in order to be complete, would have to be long. Let me, however, just touch upon a few important points. These values are strengthened: when power and authority are exercised in full respect for all the fundamental rights of the human person, whose dignity is the dignity of one created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen 1 :26) ; when freedom is accepted, not as an absolute end in itself, but as a gift that enables self-giving and service; when the family is protected and strengthened, when its unity is preserved, and when its role as the basic cell of society is recognized and honored. Human-Christian values are fostered when every effort is made so that no child anywhere in the world faces death because of lack of food, or faces a diminished intellectual and physical potential for want of sufficient nourishment, or has to bear all through life the scars of deprivation. Human-Christian values triumph when any system is reformed that authorizes the exploitation of any human being; when upright service and honesty in public servants is promoted; when the dispensing of justice is fair and the same for all; when responsible use is made of the material and energy resources of the world—resources that are meant for the benefit of all ; when the environment is preserved intact for the future generations. Human-Christian values triumph by subjecting political and economic considerations to human dignity, by making them serve the cause of man—every person created by God, every brother and sister redeemed by Christ.”
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“(5) I have mentioned the Declaration of Independence and the Liberty Bell, two monuments that exemplify the spirit of freedom on which this country was founded. Your attachment to liberty, to freedom, is part of your heritage. When the Liberty Bell rang for the first time in 1776, it was to announce the freedom of your nation, the beginning of the pursuit of a common destiny independent of any outside coercion. This principle of freedom is paramount in the political and social order, in relationships between the government and the people, and between individual and individual. However, man’s life is also lived in another order of reality: in the order of his relationship to what is objectively true and morally good. Freedom thus acquires a deeper meaning when it is referred to the human person. It concerns in the first place the relation of man to himself. Every human person, endowed with reason, is free when he is the master of his own actions, when he is capable of choosing that good which is in conformity with reason, and therefore with his own human dignity.”
at 3:50 PM
This article seems to be in effect, one of saying, “Only my subsidiarity is the correct subsidiarity.” I generally find arguments over the meanings of words pretty pointless. Anyway, if there ever is any large-scale movement toward decentralization, there will certainly be some communities of a communitarian flavor as admired here, and others more individualist. And because it is all decentralized, there will be no imposing of will of one on the other, with regards to what subsidiarity is, or anything else.
at 3:52 PM
Mr. Yonan, You misunderstand either my position or the way in which the people are free to set up the form of government they wish.
The people are free to set up the form of government that they wish under two circumstances.
1) A state of anarchy.
2) When an existing government is guilty of serious violations of the moral law and so is legitimately overthrown.
In the second case the government cannot be overthrown because of a violation of any alleged “social contract” (a doctrine which I do not accuse you of adhering to) and cannot be overthrown because it makes laws which are in contradiction to the will of the people, but only because of violations of the natural law.
The people do not have a right to overthrow an existing government or to set up a new form of government simply because they would prefer a different form of government, different laws, different rulers, etc. No if an absolute monarch makes laws the people do not like but which do not constitute moral violations and the people would prefer a democracy or would prefer different laws they remain under an obligation to submit to the established government and the established laws. If the same monarch were later to issue immoral laws it would then be possible to overthrow him and the people could then set up what form of government they preferred. But if a century later the people of the country wanted a change in the form of government they would again have to remain in submission to it unless immoral laws were made.
Nothing from the quotes from John Paul II say anything about the source of government authority.
John Paul’s statements, though containing words of praise, are noticeable for emphasizing what the Declaration of Independence fails to say. In short the late pope was politely (and implicitly) saying that this document contains half truths and half truths are, often enough, half errors.
at 3:59 PM
In short John Paul was engaging in a rhetorical exercise of finding some common ground as a starting point. The statement would be like an address given to a group of Lutherans praising their respect for the importance of grace and of faith and then immediately putting grace and faith into a context which Martin Luther would never have accepted. In this case the pope is talking about the importance of freedom and giving it a context which would never have been accepted by the American founders. It is a question of a proper understanding of public rhetoric.
at 4:20 PM
Prove then, that governments are not captors. private criminal gangs and governments differ only in the degree of legitimacy society confers upon them…and in the firepower available to them.
“A desire to be subordinate to legitimate authority is a sign of a healthy personality”
That’s one way of looking at it. Another is that it’s a pathetic herd mentality at best…and a a creepy masochistic fetish at worst.
at 4:25 PM
I might add that it is only necessary to invoke supremacy of government authority when it wishes to act unjustly or to violate the rights of its subjects
at 4:34 PM
Beresel, how is it that you changed the issue at hand to the subject of overthrowing government? The original issue pertained to “consent of the governed”, in the context of my argument that you have mis-interpreted Leo XIII and the Declaration on this matter.
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Obviously, I wasn’t quoting John Paul II in regard to the source of political authority. The quote was used to show that you have (previously) misconstrued the Declaration on natural rights, and other subjects therein, claiming that it merely represents what you have misnamed “classical liberalism; and thus when it comes to the subject of “consent of the governed” in the Declaration, you have already established that you willfully misconstrue that document. True to form, you put your own spin on the words of Pope John Paul II. Be that as it may, I will move on to the primary issue:
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The pimary issue now is that you have done an end-run around my previous post about the source of political authority as it relates to a legitimate understanding of “consent of the governed” by your giving a totally unrelated response. Perhaps you believe you made a relevant response; I do not see it.
at 8:17 PM
Mr. Yonan, In regard to the consent of human wills I have already said that the people are free to set up the form of government they wish when either there is a state of anarchy or sufficient violation of the moral law on the part of the government. Provided that there is no such violation of the moral law a change in government must occur through the proper legal process. So in an autocratic monarchy the king may change the nation into a democracy and the people in a democracy may bring about a change into a monarchy. But government may not be changed except according to legal process unless there is a violation of morality on the part of the government, in an autocratic monarchy proper legal process would depend on the monarch.
Given historical context Saint Robert Bellarmine was not talking about the ability of the people to change the government every time they wish but is talking about the ability to change the government under justifiable circumstances and is also arguing against the strict theory of divine right of kings and what we would today call “legitimist theory” which holds that only strict senior ancestral descent can confer legitimacy even if the royal family in question has not held power for centuries. We must interpret Saint Robert Bellarmine in light of opposition to the divine right of kings, not in light of the later theory of the social contract.
I do not misconstrue John Paul II. You are the one who takes statements out of context. Let us look at papal practice over the past few centuries.
Pope Pius XI considered the Austrian government of Engelbert Dollfuss to be a model of adherence to Catholic teaching. Dolfuss once stated that “We intend to establish the social, Christian, German State of Austria on a corporative basis, under a strong authoritarian government.”
St. Pius X refused to condemn the agnostic Charles Maurras on the grounds that Maurras defended the principle of authority.
Blessed Pius IX supported the creation of the Mexican empire of Maximillian (orchestrated by conservatives and clergy in Mexico and largely established because of a French army sent to Mexico by Napoleon III, entirely non-democratic and possibly against the will of the majority of Mexicans).
One of the popes around the time of the French Revolution or shortly after the Napoleonic period (named Pius, I do not remember which one) called monarchy the best form of government. I could get an exact quote given time.
Blessed Innocent XI opposed the English Revolution which overthrew King James II in 1688 (and provided inspiration for the American Revolution) and ordered prayers said for James’s restoration, even though James was an ally to Louis XIV who was at that time an active enemy of the pope. Pope not only continued to recognize James II as king until his death but recognized his son as King James III (and maintained him as king of England in Rome), until his own death in the 1760s (at which point the popes recognized the House of Hanover for the first time).
Papal statements must be understood in the context of papal statements and praxis throughout Church history. I could give numerous other examples of popes supporting autocratic governments, colonial powers which exercised political control over indigenous peoples and so on, but such a list could be almost endless.
I am sorry but I am not one of those whom Pope Gregory XVI (in Mirari Vos) identified as “shameless lovers of liberty” and you will not convince me to be so. I am entirely in sympathy with the authoritarian principles endorsed by Pius XI and Dolfuss.
If you really have nothing better to do than to start the same debate in regard to each article I write I would suggest finding a hobby. Otherwise you may appear to fit Churchill definition of a fanatic as one who can’t change his opinion and won’t change the subject.
at 8:32 PM
Prove then, that governments are not captors.
How about in the rule of St. Louis IX? Or perhaps St. Henry I (HRE), Bl. Pius IX. Maybe the government of St. Alfred the great, or Charlemagne. What all of these kings, all saints minus Charlemagne, have in common is justice. As St. Augustine says: Remota itaque justitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia? (de Civitate Dei, IV, 4,1).
It seems to me that the proposition that the government is a captor inherently (if I’m reading you right) is based on a misconception of how our government got to this point. The tyranny did not originate in the government. The top 1% where wealth concentrates in the capitalist system lobbies the government and asks them to protect them from groups they don’t like. So for example why is the government shutting down farmers who sell raw milk? Why is the FDA constantly fast tracking big pharma while threatening to shut down vitamin companies? Because big agra and big pharma are scared of competition as we come to the realization that their products are bad for our communities, our health, etc. and move to alternatives. Why is the government out pushing cap and trade and carbon credits, carbon taxes, global warming surcharges on airlines, etc.? Because politically motivated groups lobby the government to make it happen. Why do we go to war? Because large businesses want the contracts to rebuild after we level the place with collateral damage. Government however, is often neutral until moved to do “x” by those with the money.
I don’t think the issue is the government is a captor as the upper wealthy class is a captor using the government to get welfare and prevent competition, much like in fascism. I think Chad is equating our current experience under a tyrannous national government which is growing worse and worse under successive demican and republicrat regimes. That doesn’t mean the solution is no government, that sets up a false dichotomy. The solution is government with justice.
Now Ben Yonan above made a very important distinction between how the United States was founded in a Republican (not as in the party) system versus today which is more properly a Nationalist system, and soon more like a National Socialist system. Yet, there is another factor to consider. Hilaire Belloc relates this in Cruise of the Nona, which I can only paraphrase because I do not have the book at hand. He was asked, what is the best system of government? and in his youth, before he changed his views, he said “a Republic.” But the professor who asked him retorted “To have a Republic you must first have republicans.” He goes on musing how while a Republic sounds great, the problem becomes clear when you come into the character of men, who have different aims, vices, etc. who in many cases do not take their republic seriously, and thus it devolves into a plutocracy since the wealthiest will have the means as well as the know how to use and abuse the system. Later I’ll get the book and give the full quote for anyone who is interested.
Thus a republic, even more so a democracy, is easy to lead astray. Yet it may work also. The bigger question is justice, not so much the consent of the governed. When you look at Magna Charta, it does not harp on the need of the people to approve the king, it goes after the king for not ruling according to tradition, which required limited rule and justice. It is not as imperative for government to have the consent of the governed as it is for government to rule for Christ the king, and accord with justice. How do we realize that? For Leo XIII that is a moot point so long as justice is ensured. The Church does not teach that you must have a monarchy, or any other form of government because that is relative to a given country, its traditions and institutions. It seems to me the best way to achieve justice across the board is by a multiplicity of local government that competes with the next level of government, and keeps it all in check, not to mention a weak executive. Early medieval monarchies worked very well because the king was not even a fraction as powerful as the IRS is today. You also need to keep the ability of those with the most means, that is the most wealth, of unduly influencing the government.
at 2:32 AM
As it appears, Baresel, you continue with your evasion of my original challenge in regard to two statements you made.
First, you said, “What I do dispute is that “the consent of the governed” (consent implying the free will of the of the community or of its members rather than their nature) is a source of political authority.”
Secondly, you stated “I am sorry but the statement which Leo XIII identifies as erroneous is almost identical to what is affirmed in the Declaration of Independence.”
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I have already shown according to mainstream Catholic political thinking that your first statement is woefully inadequate, if not false if taken at face value. And your second statement is blatantly false.
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Your subsequent and continually irrelevant responses do nothing toward justifying the misleading and false statements you have made. But you find all that a sufficient standard for truth. Sad!
at 3:05 AM
One more observation, Baresel. You went to some length in an attempt to convince that you were not spinning the words of John Paul II. It was all for naught because John Paul II accepts J. Maritain’s position that the Declaration retains the traditional doctrine of natural law. In the last analysis, you did in fact put a spin on the Pope’s words.
at 11:18 AM
Mr. Yonan,
Forgive me for not having been explicit about an important distinction. The consent of human will is necessary for the initial establishment of government when either there is a state of anarchy or when a government must be removed due to serious violations of the moral law. But once this is done and the government exists the people do not have a right to withdraw their consent and institute yet another a new government unless there is again either a violation of the moral law or a state of anarchy.
So yet, human will is necessary for the creation of government but until such time as a violation of the moral law is concerned a government is justified in maintaining itself against the consent of the governed.
I would direct you to the following lines from Leo XIII’s AU MILIEU DES SOLLICITUDES
“14. Various political governments have succeeded one another in France during the last century, each having its own distinctive form: the Empire, the Monarchy, and the Republic. By giving one’s self up to abstractions, one could at length conclude which is the best of these forms, considered in themselves; and in all truth it may be affirmed that each of them is good, provided it lead straight to its end — that is to say, to the common good for which social authority is constituted; and finally, it may be added that, from a relative point of view, such and such a form of government may be preferable because of being better adapted to the character and customs of such or such a nation. In this order of speculative ideas, Catholics, like all other citizens, are free to prefer one form of government to another precisely because no one of these social forms is, in itself, opposed to the principles of sound reason nor to the maxims of Christian doctrine. What amply justifies the wisdom of the Church is that in her relations with political powers she makes abstraction of the forms which differentiate them and treats with them concerning the great religious interests of nations, knowing that hers is the duty to undertake their tutelage above all other interests. Our preceding Encyclicals have already exposed these principles, but it was nevertheless necessary to recall them for the development of the subject which occupies us to-day.
15. In descending from the domain of abstractions to that of facts, we must beware of denying the principles just established: they remain fixed. However, becoming incarnated in facts, they are clothed with a contingent character, determined by the center in which their application is produced. Otherwise said, if every political form is good by itself and may be applied to the government of nations, the fact still remains that political power is not found in all nations under the same form; each has its own. This form springs from a combination of historical or national, though always human, circumstances which, in a nation, give rise to its traditional and even fundamental laws, and by these is determined the particular form of government, the basis of transmission of supreme power.
16. It were useless to recall that all individuals are bound to accept these governments and not to attempt their overthrow or a change in their form.”
The comments under number 16 are most instructive.
The people can create the form of government they wish when no government exists, but once a given form of government exists we must submit.
You claim that I am outside the mainstream of Catholic political thinking. To address this issue it is necessary to distinguish between the long term view and the short term. The Church has always accepted monarchy as a legitimate form of government. Since the overthrow of the monarchies of the ancien regime many of the popes and many Catholic thinkers were either monarchists or favored autocratic and authoritarian approaches to government.
We can think of popes Gregory XVI, Blessed Pius IX, Saint Pius X, Pius XI; the Jesuits of La Civilta Catholica in the 19th and early 29th century; the famous French journalist; Louis Veuillot; Father Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange; Paul Claudel; the list can go on and on. I could provide precise references but evidence in favor of what I am saying is fairly common knowledge.
Up until the 1960s Maritain was widely regarded as a liberal (he did, in fact, identify himself as “a man of the left”). It is only since that time that his views have become more mainstream. Bernard Doering has a book “Jacques Maritain and the French Catholic Intellectuals” which adequately proves my point.
Doering makes the mistake of arguing that the more liberal views of Maritain were embraced by the Church at Vatican II which is not correct.
What would be correct to say about Vatican II, and which may serve to correct some of your interpretations, is the following. From the time of the French Revolution until Vatican II the Church stressed those aspects of its teachings which were in opposition to such modern “democratic” values such as an emphasis on personal freedom. Beginning with Vatican II the Church has stressed points of similarity (not identity) with those same values.
I do not dispute that there were good reasons for the change in emphasis-the need to oppose communism, the need to ally with the western democracies against communism, a desire to find (more or less) common ground to begin a constructive discussion. All such considerations make a change of emphasis entirely reasonable, though I cannot understand what people find so attractive these modern democratic values in the first place.
I did not put a spin on the pope’s words, I put them in the context of the overall teachings and practice of the popes over the centuries.
at 11:23 AM
I might add that the change in emphasis which began with Vatican II does not constitute a change in teaching.
at 4:30 PM
Baresel, first, you stated “But once this is done and the government exists the people do not have a right to withdraw their consent and institute yet another a new government unless there is again either a violation of the moral law or a state of anarchy.” Nowhere have I stated anything that disagrees with this statement. It is my position that change in government should not be attempted unless required by a justifiable concern for the common good. And any change should not be attempted if it were to enable greater evils than those which it attempts to preserve. Thus, all of your comments, such as the one quoted above, serve only to distract from the issue at hand.
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Secondly, you direct me to Leo XIII’s AU MILIEU DES SOLLICITUDES. This is a superfluous gesture on your part because I am well acquainted and fully agree with Leo XIII’s encyclicals and have stated nothing that contradicts the teachings contained therein. So, all of this verbiage on your part is hardly to the point.
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Third, you stated in a posted response to Scott that, “Leo XIII Diuturnum was clear in teaching that political authority is from God and in condemning that the authority of government has its source in the consent of the governed.” Here is where you are totally confused and in the dark regarding what Leo XIII is talking about. That is, there is a non-Christian view of man that says all men by nature all equal. From that errant view are derived false concepts of social contract, which assert there is no higher authority than the people and the general will. This false view asserts government derives its authority “solely” from the consent of the governed. However, there is the Christian view of man and natural law that understands the proximate source of political authority as derived from the “consent of the governed”. Your continued failure precisely pertains to your inability, or whatever it is, to make the necessary distinctions. Hence, your understanding of Leo XIII on this matter must be repeatedly called into question.
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Forth, your comments about Jacques Maritain border on the useless. To resort to labels like “liberal” is almost meaningless. “Liberal” and “conservative” have become basic animal terms. First, in matters of Catholic teachings on matter of faith and morals, there is no “liberal” and “conservative”. There is only orthodox and heretical. Secondly, many have also accused Maritain of becoming too conservative. Which is it? But what does all this mean? If one still prefers to use the word “liberalism” as in “liberalism in religion”, that is okay, and accordingly we can say Maritain was certainly no liberal. The truth is, is that you do not know in what sense or in what areas Maritain was liberal, or just what this could possibly mean. You are pretending to know about matters of which you appear to have little or no background. And there is a name for that. Furthermore, if you are just objecting to anything that is said to be “liberal” then you must also object to the traditional liberal arts because they constitute a “liberal” education.
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Fifth, I still maintain that you put a spin on the words of Pope John Paul II because (1) you have an incorrect understanding of Leo XIII on “consent of the governed”, (2) you have demonstrated your incorrect understanding of the American Declaration of Independence, and (3) you are totally unaware of the influence Maritain’s thought has had on Paul VI, the Vatican Council, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI.
at 8:12 PM
However, there is the Christian view of man and natural law that understands the proximate source of political authority as derived from the “consent of the governed”.
Ben,
I’m having a hard time seeing where James is wrong on this. I just re-read Diuturnum, and I do not see the distinction you are claiming. Leo does however say:
6. It is of importance, however, to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the multitude, without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic doctrine. And by this choice, in truth, the ruler is designated, but the rights of ruling are not thereby conferred. Nor is the authority delegated to him, but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined upon. (Diuturnum, no. 6)
This seems nothing more than allowing for election of a ruler in accord with Catholic principles, but his authority is not due to his election (i.e. consent of the governed). Leo is rather saying that people can choose the leader, but his right to rule is from God. Juxtapose that with the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident…That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..
What are just powers? Perhaps the right to rule? Moreover, you said: However, there is the Christian view of man and natural law that understands the proximate source of political authority as derived from the “consent of the governed”., I’m not really seeing that in Diuturnum. I’m seeing it is possible for that to be so in as much as the people may elect someone or withdraw obedience to it when the ruler acts contrary to Divine and natural law, but the Church does not seem to insist that every ruler must be proximately approved by the people to rule. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you, and maybe you can site the quote from Diuturnum which more clearly illustrates what you mean by consent of the governed in case I misread you.
Thanks
at 9:30 PM
Mr. Yonan,
To say that human wills are a necessary part of the creation of government is not the same as to say that human wills or human consent is a source of the authority of government. Under certain conditions the people set up the form of government, but do not in this way give the government its authority to govern.
I am aware that Maritain was an influence on many of the fathers of Vatican II. But keep in mind that due to a number of influences (some of the older curial official, the “International Group of Fathers” and so on) the official documents of the council were kept from stating some of what the more “liberal” (for lack of a better term) fathers wanted.
Maritain’s influence on the private theology of various popes is not relevant since their private theology is not magisterial. Again I am aware of the influence Maritain had on Pope Paul VI. Pius XI clearly took positions quite at odds with those of Maritain.
Let us leave aside the use of the term “liberal”. Maritain was consistently on the wrong side of political issues. To use just two examples which quickly come to mind and which I have mentioned before he condemned the Dolfuss government after it put down a socialist rebellion and he supported the communist side during the Spanish Civil War.
In The Peasant of the Garrone Maritain went to far as to speak well of Saul Alinsky and even went so far as to call himself, Alinsky and one other figure (I do not remember who) were the only three true revolutionaries in the world.
Change in government requires more than what would generally seem implied by “justifiable concern for the common good”. It requires truly extreme abuses.
It is your understanding of Catholic political teaching which must be called into question. Your apparent proclivity to modern democratic values seems to be an erroneous hermeneutic which you use to interpret Catholic teaching.
You consistently dismiss any fact which I bring to your attention, dismissing it as irrelevant. I am sorry Mr. Yonan but facts which provide evidence against your theories or which bear on thinkers who you bring into the discussion are entirely pertinent.
So please explain just this one fact. Blessed Pope Pius IX supported the creation of the Mexican empire of Maximilian. In doing to the pope supported the replacement of a more democratic government with a more autocratic one. The Mexican Empire was created by some Mexican conservatives and the Mexican Church but was only created because of a French invasion to which these groups within Mexico were allied. How does any of this, which was fully accepted by Pius IX, accord with your theory of government.
As a final note I am wondering if you are aware that Thomas Jefferson (primary author of the Declaration of Independence) once wrote that “there has never been a time at which priests were not enemies of liberty”?
at 9:44 PM
Mr. Yonan, If I provide evidence that the popes have, throughout history, supported autocratic governments in which these were the established order, supported colonial powers, and so on, this is entirely pertinent as evidence since such facts demonstrate the mind of the popes who issued the very teachings which are under discussion. You wish to discard as irrelevant centuries of how the popes applied Church teaching on the political order in favor of your own out of context interpretation of a single line of Vatican II and a single homily of John Paul II.
You wish only to look at the evidence which you can interpret to fit your own preconceived opinions.
And given that you claim to be such an expert in these matters I am wondering exactly what degrees you hold in philosophy or theology.
at 11:15 PM
Grant, I see that my statements are beyond yours and Baresel’s familiarity and understanding of Catholic political thinking. My recommendation is that both of you make a serious study of the subject. A good place to begin is H.A. Rommen’s classic work “The State in Catholic Thought.” After you have mastered that work, you will be able to deal in an informed manner with the various issues in Catholic political philosophy.
at 11:21 PM
Baresel’s comment on Maritain and Alinsky further reveals that Baresel knows next to nothing about Maritain. If one reads the letters between Maritain and Alinsky one sees how Maritain continually tried to convert Alinsky from his false ideas.
at 11:24 AM
Mr. Yonan,
It might come as an absolute shock to you but the fact that people disagree with you does not mean that they are ignorant of Catholic social and political thought. The fact that they have not read one particular author does not mean that they are ignorant of Catholic social and political thought.
Both Ryan Grant and myself have formal training in philosophy (I hold and MA and he holds a BA) and Mr. Grant also has a degree in theology. You have yet to identify what academic training you have received in these disciplines so until you provide such information it would seem reasonable to conclude that you are merely a dilettante who has read a works by authors whom you happen to agree with and style yourself as an expert while claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant of their topic regardless of their formal training in the pertinent discipline.
In regard to H. A. Rommen and other thinkers whom you mention it seems that you either are unfamiliar with or simply discount those Catholics thinkers who took alternative positions. For example you are fond of Father John Courtney Murray. It may interest you to know that Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani, prefect of the Holy Office under three popes, was opposed to the doctrines of Father Murray. But I suppose that a prefect of the Holy Office is “outside the mainstream of Catholic political thinking”.
Father Reginald-Garrigou Lagrange considered the political doctrines of Maritain to be unorthodox. You can find an introductory account of this in the book The Sacred Monster of Thomism. But I suppose that a prominent professor at the Angelicum and consultor to the Holy Office was outside the mainstream of Catholic social and political thinking.
The thinkers you mention (Maritain, Yves Simon, Father Murray) are all known for their sympathy for modern democratic values and for attempting to reconcile Catholic teachings with these values. You are either entirely ignorant of or else entirely ignore those Catholic thinkers (Ottaviani, Garrigou-Lagrange, the Jesuits of La Civilta Catholica, Louis Billot) and others who lacked sympathy for modern democratic values and worked to show that such values are incompatible with Catholic teaching.
I do not so much mind that you have embraced the wrong side of this debate as I do the fact that you either are unfamiliar with or ignore the other side of this debate and that you write as though anyone who has taken the other side of the debate has either no background in Catholic social and political thought or is a general idiot. Much as you might think otherwise Mr. Yonan disagreement with you does not constitute a lack of knowledge.
I did not claim that Maritain agreed with Alinsky on all points. I said specifically that Maritain identified three people as “true revolutionaries”, one of which was himself and another of which was Maritain and that, in the very same book, Maritain identified himself as a “man of the left”. If Maritain had identified himself as a “counter-revolutionary” and identified Alinsky as a “revolutionary” and tried privately to convert Alinsky that would be all well and good. I also mentioned this quote in light of Maritain consistent sympathy for socialist and other left wing groups, movements, and so on.
at 11:08 AM
Grant, I see that my statements are beyond yours and Baresel’s familiarity and understanding of Catholic political thinking. My recommendation is that both of you make a serious study of the subject.
This isn’t really helpful. I asked for examples and your response is more or less “I’m so beyond you, I won’t dirty myself with treating with you.” I’m sorry, but I have studied political philosophy for 10 years, I have read Plato’s Republic and Aristotle’s Politics in Greek, St. Augustine, St. Thomas, Suarez, Bellarmine, the Salamancan Thomists and many others in Latin, as well as contemporaries such as LaGrange and Ottaviani. I am familiar with all of these thinkers and writers, I do not see anywhere the concept of the proximate source of government conferring actual authority in any sense. This is why I asked you to site something for me, because, no matter how much one studies, it is always possible to miss something. Your response tells me you are more a man of one book. You couldn’t answer my question of how the Constitution escapes the condemnation of Diuturnum viz. consent of the governed, since it uses the same language that Leo repudiates in the encyclical. Its always possible I missed something. Instead you respond “knave! You need to learn something.” You are the one challenging, you provide the examples rather than re-asserting your supposed mastery of Catholic political thought.
at 6:44 AM
Mr. Baresel,
Your response is entirely on the level of generalization and is therefore difficult to respond to without a treatise-sized comment. In Lieu of that, I will ask simply how a government can support any Church without in some way coercing non-adherents? A “Catholic state” is either one which happens to consist of Catholic officials, or one in which the government in some form promotes Catholicism, which must come at the expense of non-Catholics in some way so far as I can see, but perhaps someone can think of a way in which government can support a particular religion sans coercion that I simply haven’t thought of.
at 8:48 AM
Joshua Scott,
The state can promote one religion without forbidding adherence to other religions.
The state can, for example, provide the Catholic Church and its organizations with funding, with public prominence, with opportunities to disseminate its teachings and so on all without doing anything to impede the practice of other religions.
To give one example. Public schools could provide Catholic religious education classes as an elective for those students whose parents do not opt out of their students being in such an elective. Those parents who do not want their students in such a class could then place their students into some secular elective class. In this way the government would be providing an opportunity for the Catholic Faith to be taught and learned without forcing it on anyone. Non-Catholics would, however, have to find some private way to teach their own religion to their children since this would not be facilitated by the government.
The principle is that the government would positively facilitate Catholicism while the government would simply refrain from placing restrictions on non-Catholic religions, except in cases in which such restrictions would be necessary for the common good (such as an Islamic sect which wanted to impose Sharia as national law or the Hindu practice of sati).
at 10:11 AM
Mr. Baresel,
How is it not coercion to use an atheist’s tax dollars to financially support a Catholic church, or provide for Catholic classes in school? I can’t see a difference between that and forcing the atheist to drop money in the Sunday collection plate.
at 10:54 AM
I think the “religion release” program has been implemented in some school districts, albeit in districts with a high percentage of Catholics. Each non-Catholic student would have to be given the same opportunity to attend a religion class at his or her church, synagogue, or mosque, or be given another class or activity while the other students are attending a religion class. That being said, and if the sponsoring church, synagogue, or mosque pays for busing the students to and from the public school, and pays the Catechism/religion teacher, I think the program passes Constitutional muster.
at 2:07 PM
Joshua Scott,
People have an obligation to financially contribute to the common good, even against their will and even if they do not recognize the good as good.
A right to religious freedom on the part of non-Catholics is a right to be free from coercion in the practice of their own religion to the extent that there is no harm to the common good. It is not a right to be free from coercion in such practice to the extent that such practice would constitute a harm to the common good.
To the extent that physical defense against violence, financial support and other contributions to the Catholic Church are necessary for the common good then it is entirely permissible for non-Catholics to be required to contribute in such ways, since they can be done by someone without that person becoming Catholic.
You must keep in mind that objective truth, objective goodness and the common good of society all take precedence over personal freedom and personal conscience. Freedom and conscience become considerations precisely to the extent that the common good is not adversely effected by their exercise. So people can legitimately be coerced against their freedom and their conscience precisely to the extent that this is necessary for the common good.
In regard to taxes more specifically this is not a matter of coercion. If the government taxes me to pay for abortions I am not coerced into funding abortion and I have no moral participation in the funding of abortion. This is because I owe the government taxes and to pay the tax is my responsibility. The money then is the property of the government and what the government does with it is its business. It is similar to the way in which if I go to the store to buy a suit it is not my business what the suit salesman does with his pay check.
To the extent that I can influence how the government uses my tax money through voting I would be obligated to vote for the candidate who will not do evil with the government’s money, but once a candidate is in office my obligation is to pay, the money is then rightfully the government’s and what they do with it is their own moral responsibility.
Money paid in taxes is the government’s property, not the tax payers’ property, and so is the responsibility of the government to use correctly and the tax payers have no moral participation in the government’s choice.
at 2:17 PM
How is it not coercion to use an atheist’s tax dollars to financially support a Catholic church, or provide for Catholic classes in school? I can’t see a difference between that and forcing the atheist to drop money in the Sunday collection plate.
This would hold if only the atheists were paying taxes. Rather, everyone is being taxed, which means that they all receive said service for the tax: education. The same tax dollars that catholics pay which gets them religious education also pay for atheist kids to have an elective about shop, philosophy or whatever else they may elect.
at 3:42 PM
Maybe the best example of a nation state that promotes a common good based on a particular religion, but also allows freedom of religion, would be Israel. Is that a fair statement Messrs. Grant and Baresel?
at 5:11 PM
Mr. Grant,
I note that you completely ignored the other half of my question, regarding supporting churches directly. Your point could have merit depending on how taxes were collected and spent, but the use of tax funds to directly support an actual church can’t be defended on those grounds. I’ll respond to Mr. Baresel a bit later when I have more time.
at 5:12 PM
Pardon me, “ignored/missed”.
at 6:15 PM
Mr. Baresel,
“You must keep in mind that objective truth, objective goodness and the common good of society all take precedence over personal freedom and personal conscience. Freedom and conscience become considerations precisely to the extent that the common good is not adversely effected by their exercise. So people can legitimately be coerced against their freedom and their conscience precisely to the extent that this is necessary for the common good.”
They take precedence, but that doesn’t mean the government has the legitimate authority to enforce that precedence. If that were true, the government could force us all to do all sorts of things even you wouldn’t agree with. Even Catholic tradition believes there are limits to what government can do, even in service of the good. Your principle would admit of no such exceptions, so either you have to say people like Aquinas were wrong in stating that government shouldn’t punish all crimes in all circumstances, or you have to come up with a new argument in support of your conclusion.
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“In regard to taxes more specifically this is not a matter of coercion. If the government taxes me to pay for abortions I am not coerced into funding abortion and I have no moral participation in the funding of abortion.”
This, and what follows it, seems to be sophistry (and I don’t mean that as an insult; I could see how one could think this was a valid argument). You are conflating lack of moral responsibility with lack of coercion, which of course is illogical. I am not morally responsible for the funding of abortion with tax dollars because I am coerced into doing it. If I had an option to pay or not pay, would I not be wrong to pay taxes that I know will be used to fund abortion? And consider the fact that if the government refrained from funding abortions (or a particular church, or whatever) and didn’t replace that spending with other spending, the tax burden necessarily goes down, thus leaving more money in my pocket, or the atheist’s pocket. And that’s money he or I would rather have than not have. Taxes are coercive, plain and simple. That’s not to say that they’re wrong per se, because government is necessary and taxes are necessary for government. But that brings us back to the fundamental question of whether it’s within government’s legitimate authority to tax and spend for the purposes at issue, so it all comes back to the same thing. Your only argument to support that, thus far, is one which proves too much.
at 5:53 AM
Perhaps this question will speed us to a resolution: What is it that you look to in order to determine what powers government may legitimately exercise? I assume we at least agree that all legitimate government authority comes from God, so a more specific form of the question is what source tells you that God delegated to government the power to support a religion with tax dollars?
at 3:48 PM
I note that you completely ignored the other half of my question, regarding supporting churches directly.
I didn’t see it as relevant, I didn’t purposely ignore it, because the discussion was around the state allowing/funding religious instruction in a school setting. So it is not supporting a given church directly, it is saying: this religion is true, so we are going to offer instruction, if you’re not of this religion and don’t want the classes you may opt out for another period of PE or something.
at 3:56 PM
[Fr. James Schall explains the Declaration of Independence and the correct principle of "consent of the governed".]
Do We Deserve To Be Free? On The Fourth of July, 2006 | Fr. James V. Schall, S.J. | July 2, 2006
Taken from “Ignatius Insight”:
“Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.” — The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies. In Congress, July 4, 1776, The unanimous Declaration.
I.
This is the two hundredth and thirtieth anniversary of a political act that established the United States as a free and independent nation. This act had consequences. Immediately, it led to a war with a proud nation from whom most citizens’ ancestors at the time came. In one sense, it was a successful civil war. The colonists maintained that the home government in London acted unjustly toward them by England’s own principles and those of mankind. Not a few in the colonies did not accept this act of separation as legitimate. Many of them fled to Canada or back to Britain. Those that stayed eventually accepted the new government.
England, however, itself concerned with French power, could not ignore this challenge to its very empire. The war ensued, fought from Fort Ticonderoga till the final surrender of Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown. The French were helpful, as were the Poles, but Washington also fought Hessians on the Delaware River. The victors subsequently proceeded to establish, with the Constitution, an effective government on the lines of thought they had set down, much of which they learned from English practice and English thinkers. They thought free men should be self-governing.
We hear and continue to hear that all wars are evil, that all problems can be solved by reason, discussion, and diplomacy. The colonists actually thought this also. But that thesis, that all can be solved (except for a few stubborn men), is itself a political philosophy that often lands a people in further, often greater tyranny. Some men and some nations will choose to act unreasonably. Not to know that possibility is to know little about human nature and verges on utopianism. Sometimes one has to fight before he can talk reason to another. The accurate realization that negotiations will not always succeed against every enemy was pretty much what the colonists realized and so stated. They did not think they were violating reason but, on the basis of evidence, following its strict requirements. This required courage and risk. They were not assured of victory.
Their “declaration” is brief. Principally, when read today–it takes but a few minutes, the text easily found on the internet–it is composed of a few tightly reasoned basic principles and a concise, trenchant list of efforts on the colonists’ part to come to terms with the British Monarch and his government over their legitimate concerns. These latter are listed in specific detail. Some twenty-five separate instances of abuse are set down as evidence. Listen to some of them: “He (the Monarch) has obstructed the Administration of Justice…..” “He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone….” “He imposed taxes without our consent.” “He abdicated Government here by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.”
But, even more than an address to the English Monarch, was the Declaration formally an appeal to reason as such. “A decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they (the colonists) should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” The point here is not whether the “opinions of mankind,” if polled at the time, would necessarily have agreed with the colonists that these reasons are sufficient to create a new political entity and to defend it even by war. We can imagine that if, say, the United Nations as it is today constituted, had existed and been called upon to agree with the reasoning given by the colonists, that UN, by a vote of 95 to 24 with several abstentions, would have rejected US views as “unreasonable.” Nor would most of the world have offered much help. They would sense that their own governments are no models of the embodiment of these same principles nor are they lacking these same abuses. Americans still would have had to act on their principles that would include the question of whether world public opinion or judgment was itself objective and reasonable.
The colonists understood that they would probably still have to act on their own judgment about the rational validity of their presentation. These issues, however, in their minds, led to dictates of “prudence.” These were sufficiently clear to act upon. Seldom are prudential situations obvious enough to exclude all possibility of error. If one insists on such absoluteness of rational clarity that always “one more final effort” must be made before acting, nothing in this world would ever be resolved. Part of the reason we study ethics and politics is to understand this limitation of practical things as a recurring reality. No action would have taken place were we “absolutely sure.” Good thinkers like Samuel Johnson doubted the colonists had chosen wisely. But without their deciding on the basis of arguments presented, we would still be British or perhaps Russian or French or Spanish–who knows?
II.
Chesterton said someplace that the United States is almost the only country ever to have been founded on an idea. [1] That is to say, it was founded by men who knew well the English and Western Christian tradition, themselves thinking with principles formulated in that tradition. These men who signed the Declaration also knew their Cicero and Aristotle, their Bible. They were presenting before mankind an argument that explained the validity of their political action. They did not intend to act unwisely or unreasonably. They knew it was a delicate situation that merited rational statement. They did not know whether they would succeed or not. No small part of their eventual success was in fact the persuasive force of their principles. But we know that rightness of cause does not, in world history, always assure political success. They had to risk, as they said at the end of the Declaration, their lives, their fortunes, and their “sacred honor.” Not all men are so willing. Men who have no conception of what this “risk” means have no grounds for freedom or to the truth on which it is based. Nor should they really live in regimes based on “sacred honor.”
The colonists knew and so stated that governments should not be changed “lightly.” Hence, by implication, they, with their list of abuses, thought it was not a “light” matter. That is why they compiled the reasons. They also knew that some evils are to be “suffered,” that it is a greater good so to do. Not everything can be righted, a principle the understanding of which leads to the profoundest theological and philosophical insights.
But the colonists also recognized that not all “evils” are, as they put it, “sufferable.” The unwillingness of a people to do nothing about anything with itself or others is not a sign of virtue but of decadence. A kind of “slavishness” sets in and is passive before every evil. The colonists did not belong to that class of men who thought they never had to stand up to anything, never had to draw a line, never had to act. They stood on the side of those who saw with the great Burke, who sided with them, that the best way to magnify evil is for good men to think they need to do nothing about it.
III.
The more famous part of the Declaration is the recital of the “self-evident” truths: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We still wonder whether “happiness” is a gift or something we can just “pursue.” Probably both. We suspect that C. S. Lewis was right when he warned us that “happiness” is not a “right,” but only the result of doing what is right, even if we suffer for it. We know that the phrase “pursuit of happiness” was a substitute for Locke’s “life, liberty, and property” which itself meant more than ownership of material goods. And we know from at least Aristotle that while “happiness” is ultimately the end of all of our actions, we must be very careful to define it correctly in the first place.
We again read with care the words that governments need the “consent” of the governed. This is not all they need. Citizens of tyrannies have been known, more frequently than we like to admit, to “consent” to their rulers. We also read about differing “forms of government.” This too was a consideration found in Plato and Aristotle. Many kinds of “good” and “bad” forms of rule can exist and have existed. People can rightly “abolish” abusive governments. When they do so, it is no doubt worthy and noble for others to assist them. A new form of rule should be effective for both the “Safety and Happiness” of the governed.
Worthy forms of rule–there is more than one configuration–none the less need to be “secured.” We need to be aware that “change” can also be for the worse, even when we naively think it is for the best. Governments are to have “just power,” not just any power. But without legitimate “power” and the willingness to use it properly, we really cannot “secure” the purpose for which governments are established. This is why the colonists complained that “He (the English king) has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our legislatures.” Power and force are not in themselves abuses but consequences of systematic abuse of law. Nor are power and force the essence of law, but consequences of its non-observance designed to re-establish reason.
Political institutions are designed to solve controverted issues arising from within them, by persuasion when possible. Setting up instruments of persuasion, such as legislatures, is one of the elements of a good regime. The Declaration of Independence stands, I think, as an affirmation that a reasonable estimate for the opinions of mankind can and should stand together with a willingness and capacity to use force to secure what rule should stand for. One is hard pressed to prove that the failure to have and use reasonable force has not resulted in more harm throughout history than failure to use articulated arguments of persuasion. The great risk of any government in any age is a certain “naivete” that hears no evil, or sees no evil, nor establishes means to cope with it when recognized.
IV.
If we look back on these two hundred and thirty years since the Declaration, we can see that America is a unique country. The Holy Father himself has said that our system of relation of religion and polity seems reasonable. We are much reviled and much imitated, often for the same reasons. One might even say that our record of both war and peace has been not just to defend ourselves, but also to assist others to help themselves, if they would. We are said to be a “pragmatic” people. Yet we are pragmatic with ideals that enable us to be so. We do not want to forget or fail to follow these principles.
We can say that our domestic politics have almost always been an effort to accomplish in practice our theoretic ideals, accomplish them against our own errors and corruptions, but also to figure out simply how to do them. Much of the poverty and disorder in the world is the result of refusing to learn what we have already learned, or more often the refusal to put it into practice. We are certainly a fortunate people in many ways. Few people on the whole have lived better lives in a material sense. But our good life is not unrelated to the reasons that make us unique, reasons stated in the Declaration as if they were intended in essence for mankind, so that they are not simply “ours.”
A number of years ago I wrote an essay in Modern Age (Spring, 1975) on teaching ancient and medieval political philosophy. There I argued, perhaps rashly, that one of the dangers involved in not taking religion seriously was the inability to understand other religions and what motivates them. At the time, I think I had more confidence in Christians understanding this importance than seculars. Sometimes I think modern liberalism and ecumenism have actually made other religions less–not more–intelligible to us.
The most pressing immediate issue facing us today is a militant religion, however we distinguish it, which persists in an announced world mission throughout centuries and constantly brings back this effort whenever it is not prevented. Belloc understood this in his time. What too many of us cannot or will not grasp is that we have a real and shrewd enemy who recognizes our internal vulnerabilities and inability to recognize that this missionary effort is real, even if, as it is said, only embraced by a portion of Islam.
We are presently at war, not just in Iraq. There are those who deny it is much of a threat. Others admit that it is serious, but not religious. Still others maintain that it is none of our business. Still, we were attacked on our soil at a definite time and place. In the period since this attack, largely because of our being made aware of the threat by the attack itself, we have prevented, almost daily, other attacks here and elsewhere. We would hope to eliminate the cause of this seemingly worldwide problem by following what we consider the essence of our political founding. Why, in logic, we think, cannot everyone have a government by consent of the government, where people can pursue their own interests, and live in peace?
So we argue among ourselves. Many hold that in following our own principles that have universal import, we are carrying them forward. Nor can we be safe, it is said, unless others are safe. None can be safe until the main causes are confronted. These causes are often seen to be largely political or economic, because we cannot think “religion” is so powerful. Whether this political and economic view is anything more than a partial analysis, I doubt. We are involved in something more than political, though the political has its place. No one likes “war of civilization” talk, except maybe certain Muslim leaders. I do not like it myself. Islam, at times, seems to be at war with itself over precisely whether these principles found in the Declaration apply to it also–about whether it is able to become “modern” and still retain its religious premises.
One of the striking things that often seems to justify hostility to this “land of the free,” as we like to call it, is frankly moral, or perhaps our morals, including those of Europe. If we read those Muslim critics most willing to attack us with force, their rational is often our own moral status. The Catholic Church in the United States has long been aware (if not particularly successful in addressing it), of the obvious inner moral disorder among us, from which its own members do not themselves seem always exempt. It is this internal disorder that prevents us most often from seeing why our better efforts are not understood.
In looking at the Declaration again, one cannot but be struck by the power of its rhetoric. Some scholars argue that this document was not intended for the world, as its authors evidently thought, but only as a kind of apologia or preface. It was not intended as an instrument of rule as was the Constitution later on. The real America, it is said, did not see itself as missioned to the rest of the world in the way in which it seems to be when reading it or its counterpart in the Gettysburg Address. America is not to involve itself in other peoples’ business, only to protect its own shores when attacked. We were attacked for the first time on our own shores in the second year of the 21st century.
President Washington advised this political caution in his Farewell Address. We need to be more modest. The “world-savers,” it is said, are the real threat among us, not some notion of a revitalized Islamic power or any other movement. China is still on the scene, now apparently involved in making all our clothing and artifacts, by imitating everything but our freedom. We are not sure what it is up to. We crossed them once before and tore ourselves apart, it is said, and we are doing the same thing now.
Lincoln spoke of this form of government described in the Declaration as “not perishing from the earth.” If we know our Plato and Aristotle, we know that any government, the worst and the best, can disappear from two causes: 1) internal change so that the original people no longer “hold” the same truths on which it was based, and 2) from foreign conquest. Watching Europe these days, one is tempted to add, in honor of Paul VI, that governments can also cease simply when its people no longer see it necessary to have children.
I recall seeing an essay in The Economist several years ago in which it projected the population of the United States compared to Europe a couple decades hence. We would be almost twice as large. It is clear that Europe is both disappearing and being replaced, often by significant Islamic population. We cannot fail to notice that often the so-called “Catholic countries”–France, Spain, and Italy, even Ireland–are the leaders in this decline. We are also told that when families are very small, sons do not go into either the army or the clergy. This population decline perhaps can be “reversed,” but thus far population size depends on importation of other people’s children both in the States and in Europe.
The end of the Declaration, before the signatures, reads as follows: “As free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which independent States may of right do.” The first item in the list, the “full power to ‘levy’ War,” is not accidental. The word “levy” means legally to call up troops, to make war. Peace can also be “concluded.” Alliances can be “contracted.” Commerce can be “established.” Anything that an “independent” state can do, the acts and things, this new nation can do.
This Declaration, finally, needs “support.” What kind of support? First it has a “firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence.” When the country acts it seeks to do so in such a way that it deserved the “protection” of precisely “Divine Providence.” If we deny such “providence,” what, we wonder, protects us? Secondly, we need to “pledge.” Pledge to whom? “To each other,” and we need to do so “mutually.” We need to know that we stand together. Again, what is it that we pledge when we act politically? “Our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.” Such pledges are still what binds us and give intelligibility to what we do and confidence that we will do it.
On this, the two hundredth and thirtieth anniversary of the signing of this justly famous and profound document, we can well afford to re-read and re-pledge what it states about both the uniqueness and universality of the rule under which we have chosen and have “pledged” to live. The “new government” thus established, now one of the oldest countries on the planet, was literally to “provide new Guards for our security.” Unless this provision is continually accomplished, nothing else is possible to a free people. Awareness of this truth is both common sense and high wisdom. A people unwilling to make this provision for such “guards,” under reason and under law, unwilling to pledge itself to its own and to universal principles, not only will not be free, but will not deserve to be free.
Endnotes:
[1] Editor’s note: “America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.” (G.K. Chesterton, What I Saw In America [1922]. Collected Works, vol. 21)
at 4:38 PM
“The doctrine of Francisco Suárez makes the community itself the depositary, immediately and naturally consequent upon its establishment of civil society, to be disposed of then by their consent, overt or tacit, at once or by degrees, according as they determine for themselves a form of government. This is the only true philosophical sense of the dictum that “governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed”.” ~Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition).
at 4:45 PM
Cardinal Bellarmine:
“It depends upon the consent of the multitude to constitute over itself a king, consul, or other magistrate. This power is, indeed, from God, but vested in a particular ruler by the counsel and election of men” (“De Laicis, c. 6, notes 4 and 5). “The people themselves immediately and directly hold the political power” (“De Clericis,” c. 7).
“The people never transfers its powers to a king so completely but that it reserves to itself the right of receiving back this power” (Recognitio de Laicis, c. 6).
at 5:01 PM
Mr. Grant,
Considering that it was Mr. Baresel who stated that one way to promote spiritual welfare would be to “provide the Catholic Church and its organizations with funding,” my comments on that regard were entirely relevant. Furthermore, the more I think about your argument regarding education, the less certain I am that it can be done without still involving some level of coercion. The same argument I used with regard to Mr. Baresel’s point works here as well, so far as I can see. If the state decided not to have religious classes, fewer tax dollars would be required, no matter how many other options are on the table for elective credits. Thus, in some form the atheist is always being forced to pay some small amount for religious education with which he vehemently disagrees. Or leave aside the atheist and take, say, Muslims, who believe Jesus was a prophet, but not divine. It would clearly be offensive to them to be forced to pay even a fraction of a penny to support the teaching of a belief directly contrary to their own. The only way I can think of to avoid this problem is to have taxes assessed based on belief systems, so that Muslims and atheists don’t pay taxes required to fund Catholic classes, but of course that would result in a bureaucratic nightmare. Can you think of an alternative?
at 5:46 PM
I generally like Fr. Schall’s writings. His piece on the Declaration may be in synch with the nationalist myth but it’s not good history.
at 5:48 PM
“Maybe the best example of a nation state that promotes a common good based on a particular religion,”
It’s questionable whether any modern nation-state promotes the common good, as it is traditionally defined. The scale/size is just wrong. It may promote some good subordinate to the common goods of real communities that exist within that nation state.
at 8:09 PM
“Thus, for instance, nearly two hundred years before the Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution, in an age devoted to the pride and praise of princes, Cardinal Bellarmine and Suarez the Spaniard laid down lucidly the whole theory of real democracy.” –Dale Ahlquist
at 4:29 PM
T. Chan:
My point was to ask whether Israel is the closest embodiment of what Messrs. Baresel and Grant appear to be calling for – a nation whose government pursues “the common good.”
In today’s world, most democratic nations have diverse peoples with diverse values. Even Israel has a somewhat diverse population, but, unlike the United States, I believe that Israel was founded on the idea that Judaism would be the dominant religion.
Thus, Israel is a “Jewish state,” but freedom of religion is allowed. Perhaps the “common good” for Israel is found in the Talmud and rabbinic interpretations of it.
In diverse democratic countries that were not founded on the idea that one religion would dominate the public sphere, “common good” has different meaning for different groups of people.
That being said, and applying the principle of subsidiarity, the “common good” should be determined by the voting populace at the lowest possible level of government – local, then state, keeping in mind not to run afoul of the United States Constitution. In that context, Catholics should use media and the voting booth to implement the “common good,” as shaped by Catholic social doctrine.
at 1:14 AM
Well, I’ll let Messrs. Baresel and Grant answer the question about Israel. Thaddeus Kozinski has written about the (Catholic) confessional state and why the liberal state fails. The common good of the community is simply its members living together well. In American megacities people have very few real bonds to other people, and community is generally absent. Applying subsidiarity where community is absent is premature. As for the Constitution, its proper interpretation leaves a lot of room for the states to order themselves with respect to the common good, though they themselves may be too big. (As Jefferson foresaw.)
at 5:55 PM
Mr. Yonan,
I would direct you to a recent study by Brad S. Gregory, an associate professor of early modern history at Notre Dame, titled “The Unintended Reformation, How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society”. After recognizing that there were ways in which the American founding principles had been influenced by Christianity in certain ways he goes on to write that:
“At the same time, however, the founding documents of the United States enshrined not a substantive ethics of the good but a formal ethics of rights, one that departed in critical ways from the conception of rights both in medieval Christianity and in magisterial Protestantism during the Reformation era.” (pg. 214)
at 5:59 PM
Joshua Scott,
As I do not have the time to answer all considerations in detail I would simply look at the support which civil authority gave to the Church in the Middle Ages and in those nations which remained Catholic after the Protestant Reformation until the rise of secular states following the French Revolution.
at 7:54 PM
Mr. Baresel,
Since the fact that governments at a point in history did a thing does not prove that it was or is legitimate, I wouldn’t look to that.
at 8:37 PM
Joshua Scott,
Throughout the Middle Ages the Church endorsed what these governments were doing. I would recommend the following encyclicals:
Gregory XVI
Mirari Vos
Commissum Divinitus
Blessed Pius IX
Quanta Qura
Syllabus of Errors
Leo XIII
Immortale Dei
Saint Pius X
Une Fois Encore
Pius XI
Quas Primas
You will see from these encyclicals that the popes have consistently taught that state support of the Church is the ideal.
at 5:13 AM
The fact that the popes have endorsed it doesn’t make it good either. Even popes are subject to flaws like self interest, or even just making assumptions that aren’t true. It would be one thing if one of these encyclicals argued for why such support was legitimate. And frankly, just as you don’t have time for a detailed response, I don’t have time to read half a dozen encyclicals to find that out.
at 8:41 AM
So basically you’re not a Catholic, at least in believing the things we must? Not much surprise there, since in your previous posts concerning money, you made it clear that you wanted money to beget more money, not remain stable. According to Catholics, whenever one Pope after another repeats a certain teaching, it is at least authoritative, if not infallible. I should have known that when you attacked the idea that money has to be stable.
at 8:45 AM
A saint pope and a beatified pope motivated by self-interest? Incredible! And you haven’t even read any one of their writings; they really show why such support is legitimate and you brush them off! It does show me how really close-minded you are; talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
at 8:46 AM
No wonder I got angry at you, as well as Ben Yonan in the other comments on a previous article.
at 8:51 AM
Paul,
I never argued money shouldn’t be stable; quite the contrary, I was arguing for a good standard on the precise grounds that it does make money stable. And no Catholic “must” believe something just because it’s been repeated by popes; they simply have to give it the respect it deserves, depending on what kind of pronouncement it is. After all, more than one pope criticized the rise of democracy, if I remember correctly, but now they have no such qualms. I won’t even dignify your second comment with a response, since it’s nothing but a straw man at best.
at 8:59 AM
You sure don’t know what the Popes condemned by saying they condemn democracy. NONE of the Popes ever condemned TRUE democracy. They condemned the notion that power comes from the people; they can vote but the power of authority ultimately comes from GOD.
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Your previous comments are strawmen, too, since you attack the Popes for the supposed “flaws” and “self-interest” and yet you haven’t shown one proof of that in the Encyclicals cited by Mr. Baresel.
at 9:00 AM
“More respect it deserves”? On the contrary, it must be believed docilely; it is part of the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium of the Church at least. I really see that IMHO, you don’t believe as a Catholic should.
at 10:06 AM
And now you’re just misquoting me; I never said “condemned.” And you apparently don’t even know what a straw man is.
at 10:12 AM
I don’t? What Popes did out of “self-interest” or “flaws” isn’t even relevant to the teachings contained in Encyclicals. If that isn’t a strawman, what is? You chose to attack the personal lives of the Popes, which I admit were not all holy.
at 10:14 AM
All right, I made a mistake: you did a non sequitur, not any better than a straw man.
at 10:18 AM
We can settle this easily: cite one instance of a papal endorsement (while teaching the laity what to believe) that isn’t good.
at 11:04 AM
What the popes condemned was the rise of “modern democracy” which is something different from a legal arrangement of popular participation in government. “Modern democracy” is an ideological positions which holds democratic participation to be a natural right (as opposed to a legal right which can be non-existent in some countries), holds legal equality (as opposed to hereditary aristocracy) to be a natural right (as opposed to a legitimate legal arrangement in particular countries) and prioritizes individual freedom as opposed to truth (such as Catholic teaching), the authentic common good, authority, and order.
at 11:06 AM
Joshua Scott,
I would also ask you, leaving aside the question of the weight of magisterial statements, what and who do you consider a more reliable guide out of the following?
Is it the popes?
Or is it the American tradition of “freedom” and “individual rights”?
at 11:11 AM
dmiehls,
Just to clarify the issue I am addressing, my concern is not to identify what would or would not be in conformity with the American Constitution. This is a purely legal question which concerns only the United States.
The question that I am addressing is what is the ideal from a Catholic perspective and from this perspective the constitution of a given country (whether the United States or Uganda) is irrelevant. There can be particular historical circumstances which make the ideal unattainable in a given time and place, and even where the ideal is attainable we must be sure to pursue it through proper means.
I do not claim that government endorsement of the Catholic Church is something to pursue under current historical circumstances or that it could be pursued without a change to the American Constitution were historical circumstances to sufficiently change.
at 5:16 PM
Catch-up time.
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Paul,
I actually didn’t notice this earlier, but you doomed your own argument: “According to Catholics, whenever one Pope after another repeats a certain teaching, it is at least authoritative, if not infallible.” If it’s not infallible, it could be wrong, ergo there can be no absolute requirement to believe it.
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“A saint pope and a beatified pope motivated by self-interest? Incredible! And you haven’t even read any one of their writings; they really show why such support is legitimate and you brush them off! It does show me how really close-minded you are; talk about the pot calling the kettle black!”
I knew I said I wouldn’t respond to this, but just to prove what I said about it being a straw man so I can later show why my comments contained neither straw men nor non sequiturs, here goes: Yes, saints can be motivated by self-interest, as I’m sure even the saintliest of popes would admit. But I didn’t even say that’s why they said it, as you seem to believe I did. I also mentioned the fact that they can make assumptions that aren’t true. Even the most pious can fall prey to this mistake. No one is good enough to have thought through all their assumptions. Your implication is that I was accusing the authors of those encyclicals of writing what they did purely out of selfish motives, when in fact I offered two possibilities (and there are probably more). I did not “attack” the popes in any sense of the word. I was merely pointing out that the fact that a pope says something doesn’t make it true. Would you actually disagree with that statement? Nor was I “brushing off” the encyclicals. I simply don’t have much time for pleasure reading between work and other obligations. And I’m really not sure what you mean by calling pot black. Are you referring to closed-mindedness, or something else?
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“On the contrary, it must be believed docilely; it is part of the Ordinary Authentic Magisterium of the Church at least. I really see that IMHO, you don’t believe as a Catholic should.”
I’d like to see you cite support for the notion that just because it’s been taught by a few popes, it must be believed “docilely.” If that’s the case, what’s the point of having varying levels of Magisterium in the first place? Why have a distinction for ex cathedra pronouncements? Do I not have an intellect capable of reasoning for myself? Even the Apostle Paul says we should each be fully persuaded in our own minds about some things (I believe that’s in Romans, off-hand).
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I hesitate to take you up on an offer to search for a needle in a haystack, but in case I get really bored with nothing to do in the near future, are we limiting this to encyclicals, or what?
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Mr. Baresel,
You might be right about the issue being “modern” democracy; I don’t remember enough detail off-hand, so we can drop that issue unless I come up with further evidence. As to your question, I consider it unfair on two grounds: 1) It’s complex in that it assumes I have asserted something I haven’t (that the “American tradition” is the basis of my arguments); and 2) It’s a false dichotomy. My argument is based off of Scripture and reason, ultimately. In brief, to go back to my earlier, unanswered question, if God is the source of authority, what tells us how much authority He gave? The Bible certainly tells us some things, but the Bible doesn’t really go beyond punishment of actual evil, which is nowhere near granting the authority to actively promote the good through coercion (and taxation is always coercion). The only instance I can think of that could be used to contradict my theory is the Mosaic Law, but that was clearly a special case of God covenanting with a chosen people, and even in the Mosaic Law there were no penalties (imposed by government, at least) for failing to do beneficent acts such as leaving grain in your field for the stranger, etc. Indeed, the general rule is that what an Israelite should do is coupled with blessings, while what they should not do was coupled with punishments. Curses might be applied in some cases, but those came direct from God, and no governmental authority had any hand in meting them out. Furthermore, Paul tells the Corinthians that they should not give out of necessity or grief, but only what they are willing to give, for “God loves a cheerful giver.” If Paul is telling this to Christians, who of all people have the higher standard to live up to, then how can you argue that all people should be forced to support a church of any denomination? It makes no sense to force an atheist to support the Catholic church down the street with his taxes, while simultaneously telling the parishioners who attend the same church that they should only give out of a cheerful heart! So what I’m really getting at here is that a pope could endorse governments doing such things all day, but unless they have actually come up with a reason why their endorsement is valid that doesn’t conflict with what Scripture obviously says, Scripture is the higher authority. Thus, I have no need to resort to an “American tradition” or any other secular source.
at 9:07 AM
I was disappointed in this article and in some of the comments afterwards.
Conflating the state with society is an error that causes many problems today. Someone favoring limited government does not preclude a devotion to community. Those of us who see the way the state uses “concern” for the poor to usurp more power with poorly-thought out programs are not saying that we ought not to care for our fellow man or community. We are saying that state-compulsion is not a healthy way to do it.
A right-minded libertarian values the right to associate and build up the community—which feeds into a healthy subsidiarity.
Grouping all libertarians together is a gross mistake. I have seen some other Catholics that ought to know better do the same. A well-formed and faithful Catholic can rightfully stand up for the dignity of the individual within the framework of the Ten Commandments.
Baresal paints all businessmen with the same brush as well, saying that businessman has no care for the common good. What about the Catholic businessman, whose path to Christ will be found in and through his normal business? We are all called to seek sanctity, whether or not we are called to the priesthood, religious life, or university teaching.
State laws are not the only way to fight sinful behavior. Social mores and customs work better. The War on Drugs, filling our prisons, is a great example. Criminalizing vice did not work with Prohibition.
The modern secular state—unlike the monarchies of old that at least nominally acknowledged God as the source of its authority—acknowledges no limits to its authority, tramples religious liberty, and has caused incredible death and suffering. Modern technologies allow the state to impose itself foolishly and dangerously in everyday lives. My weighing of the issues makes me support Ron Paul’s candidacy, because his faithfulness to Constitutional limits of government power (limits trampled on by laws permitting abortion and subsidized contraception) and devotion to peace (Peace is pro-life.) constitute two critical first priorities in caring for temporal society.
Thanks.
at 4:06 PM
Joshua, Pope Pius XII himself stated that just because Encyclicals aren’t infallible, that doesn’t mean Catholics just “respect” the teaching in them; it means they must believe them. This teaching on the union of Church and State as the ideal has been repeated from the earliest ages and even til Pope Pius XII. IMO, it is at least on the level of the Ordinary Magisterium. Hardly “a few Popes” taught this! Pope Boniface VIII was the one who formulated the full teaching, and later Popes elaborated more.
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BTW, I’m done here. You seem to be insincere here; Mr. Barasel only mentioned a few encyclicals to read and you infer from that that only “a few Popes” taught union of Church and State. You aren’t doing any reading of any sort.
at 9:02 AM
Joshua Scott,
Just as a point of clarification, to set up opposition between the American tradition and the popes is not a false dichotomy. Without addressing the issue of the degree of difference between the two or the issue of the degree of compatibility between the two it would not make any sense whatsoever to deny that there is any difference.
It is the role of the Church to determine what are the limits and what is the extent to which God has given authority to government.
at 11:28 AM
Mr. Davern,
I fully agree that society and the state are not the same. For example I would prefer quality, price and wage standards to be regulated by a modern equivalent of guilds rather than by the government. We must keep in mind, however, that the guilds did have a certain civic standing in a society which was not as sharply divided between “government” and the “private sector” as we know today.
Subsidiarity rightly understood would fully endorse “non-governmental” regulatory bodies such as a modern equivalent guilds over modern governmental regulation as these “non-governmental” bodies would constitute a more “localized” level of society (in the sense of being “closer” to the work in question rather than in the sense of geographic locality).
Would the libertarian which you seem to endorse support organizations such as a guild system in which it was impossible to work in a given trade without being a member of the guild?
I would fully endorse a move towards less centralized government regulation in favor of regulation by either local governments or by “private” organizations. I am in no way opposed to the idea that regulation should be limited even at these levels. My argument against libertarianism is that libertarianism endorses a “free market” (without any regulations) as opposed to a “regulated market”.
I would distinguish between well-thought out local government programs based on correct principles aimed at ensuring basic well being within a traditional organic and stratified society and modern poorly thought out, centralized, bureaucratic government programs based on erroneous principles and a socialistic goal of enforced egalitarianism.
I did not intend to paint all businessmen with the same brush. I merely intended to point out that government officials are not necessarily corrupt, that businessmen may be corrupt and that politics is by its nature more thoroughly ordered to the common good than is business. That being said I do not deny that business is ordered to the common good, that there are businessmen who are entirely moral and entirely concerned for the common good and that there are members of the government who lack these qualities.
To repeat a basic theme and apply it to economic regulation: The authentic good of individuals and the community ranks higher than freedom from government control and it is the role of the government to direct the entire life of society, including economic life, to the common good. This common good requires a high degree of freedom, excludes centralized bureaucratic planning and is incompatible with socialistic regulation. But we must distinguish government regulation as such from particular forms of regulation, particular doctrines motivating regulation and particular goals of regulation.
We must also recognize both the extent to which government regulation of our lives and the extent to which individual freedom are necessary for the good of society. Russell Kirk emphasized the importance of “ordered freedom”. A proper level of order is provided by organizations other than the government, but a certain degree of order and regulation must be provided by the government. Government should be “small” but there is such a thing as too small. Freedom is not the highest good, but must also be subordinated to the principle of governmental authority and must be subordinated to the spiritual, moral, cultural and material well being of society. Governmental authority is not absolute and government control should be kept within the limits of its proper role and a high degree of freedom is necessary to attain higher goods. Yet it remains the case that freedom is a subordinate good.
A totally unregulated free market leads to the poor quality of products, low pay, dangerous working conditions and long hours of work which were seen during the industrial revolution. The same can result from socialism and bureaucratic central planning. The economy must function on the “ordered freedom” model of a market regulated according to the principle of subsidiarity. As in most aspects of human life both maximization of individual freedom and maximization of governmental control lead to disaster, though obviously a healthy society requires (under normal conditions) a much higher degree of freedom than of government control.
I would present the following from John Paul II’s Centesimus Annus:
“can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?”
“The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”. But if by “capitalism” is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.”
I have yet to encounter a theory calling itself “libertarian” which recognizes the importance of the “strong juridical framework”, though I do not exclude the possibility that such a theory exists.
at 5:09 PM
Paul,
If you’re referring to Humani Generis, you’re overstating your case with regard to Pius XII; he was much more specific than the sweeping generalization you make. And I didn’t infer that only a few popes said anything; that was merely all the evidence I was given, and so in fairness I could at least presume that Mr. Baresel thought a few popes were enough, thus my response was based on “a few popes.”
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Mr. Baresel,
Setting up an opposition between church teaching and an American tradition by itself doesn’t create a false dichotomy, but that’s not what you did; you asked me a question in a context which very much made it a false dichotomy. Or else simply irrelevant, take your pick. As for your statement that the church is what decides what governments can do, that’s step one of your argument (although I could ask you to go behind that and support that premise as well, but I won’t, at least for now). Now you need to actually prove that church teaching rules out my view.
Also, your response to Kevin Davern reveals part of the problem, I think. I’m curious as to why you think it would be a good thing to force people to be part of a guild just so they can ply a particular trade, but I’ll leave that for the larger point, which is that you seem to misunderstand libertarianism at a fundamental level, or else think John Paul II said something he didn’t. Libertarians aren’t opposed to “strong juridical frameworks” at all, they merely believe they should be limited. Nothing in your quotation of JP II actually conflicts with libertarian thought, largely because it’s all on the level of generalization (which I find is often true of his writings, but that might just be because the ones I’ve focused on don’t represent him well). A “strong juridical framework” could be nothing more than laws against fraud and a tort system for suing over defective products that cause damage, neither of which are contrary to libertarian thought. You have to get much more specific before your start creating conflicts. Indeed, his first definition of “capitalism” (which is really a poor term, since that really only means the saving of capital now for increased gain later) is quite a lot like libertarianism: “If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.” He even uses the term “free economy!”
Finally I’ll address this: “A totally unregulated free market leads to the poor quality of products, low pay, dangerous working conditions and long hours of work which were seen during the industrial revolution. “
First, the Industrial Revolution didn’t exist in a “totally unregulated free market.” There were tariffs for one, and I’ll mention some other points below Second, the lack of regulation (such as there was) is not what made pay low, quality poor, and work dangerous and long. Working in factories with low technology (or mines, or whatever), is simply dangerous; you can’t regulate safety into existence in the absence of means. Work hours were long in part because people wanted to work extra hours (for the extra pay), and probably partly because there were laws against unionization (a regulation!). Furthermore, you’re making the mistake of comparing then with now, when what you should be doing is comparing then with before. Before the Industrial Revolution, people worked all day for the simple reason that they had to. Farms couldn’t be run on eight hour days, and neither could many other businesses. Laws against unionization would also account for the low pay, as well. But a counterexample is Rockefeller, who despite having almost complete market dominance continued to improve his quality while increasing his workers’ salaries and decreasing prices, all during a period of relative market freedom. As for low quality of products, I’d like to know what you’re referring to. I’ve never heard that criticism before, but of course it’s also covered by my Rockefeller counter-example.
The basic thing, though, is that you’re only assuming an unregulated market would lead to all these problems. You have no real evidence of that, largely because a truly free market has never been tried. The best approximations, though, have generally been periods of increasing standards of living and wealth for nearly all concerned.