The one thing that modern science should be able to do is to explain to us how things happen. The one thing it cannot do is tell us that things happen by chance. Things may well happen by chance, but then there is no chance of a scientific explanation. “Chance” is the methodology of Darwinian account of evolution, which can only mean that it doesn’t actually account for anything. A convinced Darwinist might respond, “It is not just chance, but chance mutations measured against their survival value; it is the struggle for survival which makes chance mutations work.” But this merely introduces a factor which Darwinists make no attempt to explain, namely, the will of the organism to live. That organisms have such a will is self-evident, but can such a will really be the result of chance mutations? After all, we never speak of the rock’s struggle for survival, but if rocks and plants are just different configurations of matter, where does such a will come from? Here we see the biological form of Heidegger’s great question, “Why should things want to be rather than not be?”
This self-evident “will to live” introduces an insurmountable problem for the Darwinist, for such a will must be present at the very beginning of life for the theory to work at all. Without it, no species has any reason to adapt, or any individual any reason to survive. But this “will” must precede evolution, and hence cannot be explained by it. It might have been plausible, in the naïve days of the 19th century, to speak of the ascent of higher forms of life from lower forms, of a movement from the simple to the complex. But that is no longer possible for the simple reason that we cannot find a “simple” form of life. The smallest one-celled animal is irreducibly and unimaginably complex. The single-cell already contains an information storage and retrieval system which cannot, as yet, be duplicated by human means. And it also contains a construction system of astounding complexity, able to translate information into acids and complex structures, and the cell itself is a collection of complex and cooperating structures. The scale of information is astounding; an amoeba dubia has 670 billion base-pairs (bits) in its genetic material; the human, by comparison, has 2.9 billion.
But this is just the beginning of the complexity, since not only is each cell complex in itself, but lives in a complex set of relationships with other cells and other species. There are simply no “simple” life forms with which we may locate a simple “beginning.” Indeed, the distance between “nothing” and amoeba is far greater than the distance between amoeba and man. This is to say, evolution is mostly complete by the time it starts. The heroic efforts to explain all this within the “black-box” of chance mutations seems more like an act of faith than a conclusion of science.
If the Darwinists cannot provide us with a scientific answer, should we turn to the theory of “Intelligent Design”? For the one thing that everybody can agree on is that the design is very intelligent indeed. But does it really do us any good, for our understanding of God’s universe, to replace the black box of chance with one marked “miracles”? The whole point of having a rational God—a god who is also logos—is that His universe is not only intelligent but intelligible; man, made in the image and likeness of this logos-God, is always able to understand more and more of God’s work. Indeed, coming to an understanding of this is man’s work; our task is not merely to put the right label on the black box, but to open the box and see what’s inside. What is needed is a theory not of intelligent design, but intelligible design. We already know that, as final cause, God did it; the trick is to see how he does it.
But if we cannot turn to Darwin to open the black box, and if Intelligent Design merely re-labels the box, where are we to turn for a scientific explanation? This is the question that Thomas Nagel explores in Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False. It is important to realize that Prof. Nagel is a philosopher with impeccably atheist credentials. But while he has no belief in God, he has a belief in fairness:
Even if one is not drawn to the alternative of an explanation by the actions of a designer, the problems that these iconoclasts pose for the orthodox scientific consensus should be taken seriously. They do not deserve the scorn with which they are commonly met. It is manifestly unfair.(p. 10)
The essential difficulty that Nagel poses to the Darwinist is the problem of mind: consciousness, cognition, and values. If the Darwinist account of nature is correct, these things must be reducible to physical matter. The problem with such reductionism is that the more we know of mind, the less material it seems. And if mind is more than matter, then biology must be more than materialism. But we can go further. If the universe is intelligible, than matter itself must be more than material. But what substance can we give to this “more than”?
Modern science, if it is to be scientific, must insist that the universe is intelligible. But this intelligibility is hard to explain, and indeed it isn’t explained; it is accepted as a matter of faith. For Nagel, theism refers intelligibility to something external, namely the will of God, but this prevents any understanding of the world on its own terms. He judges the “interventionist” accounts of evolutionary order to be a denial that there is a comprehensive natural order.
The Darwinist account, on the other hand, can give us an explanation of the intelligibility of the universe, but only at the cost of undermining our confidence in that explanation. For example,
[A]n evolutionary self-understanding would almost certainly require us to give up moral realism— the natural conviction that our moral judgments are true or false independent of our beliefs. Evolutionary naturalism implies that we shouldn’t take any of our convictions seriously, including the scientific world picture on which evolutionary naturalism itself depends.(p. 28)
This is to say, if our thoughts are merely the result of a particular electro-chemical state of the brain, what assurance do we have that these contingent states actually reflect the actual world? No answer, from within a purely material science, can satisfy the radical skeptic. Nagel takes us, in great detail, through the problems of trying to explain consciousness, cognition, and values in materialistic, evolutionary terms. At each level, the problems for materialist explanations grow exponentially.
All explanations of the mental have to be either reductive or emergent. A reductive account will explain the mental character of complex organisms entirely in terms of the properties of their elementary constituents. An emergent account will explain the mental in terms of the higher-level physical functioning of the central nervous system, or structure like it. Both have problems. The reductive account must posit some as yet unknown “proto-mental” characteristics in the particles that make up the universe. But the emergent account, aside from undermining our confidence in any mental constructs, places an unbearable burden on evolutionary theory itself. At no stage in the emergence of the purely mental can Darwinism give us an account that is in any way probable; it can only assert the brute fact that consciousness does exist and then by brute force exclude any but a materialist explanation.
As an alternative to either the materialist or the interventionist theories, Nagel proposes a teleological property to the universe.
A teleological account will hold that in addition to the laws governing the behavior of the elements in every circumstance, there are also principles of self-organization or of the development of complexity over time that are not explained by those elemental laws.(p. 59)
Nagel realizes that such an account will meet the same opposition as does Intelligent Design.
I realize that such doubts will strike many people as outrageous, but that is because almost everyone in our secular culture has been browbeaten into regarding the reductive research program as sacrosanct, on the ground that anything else would not be science.(p. 7)
For this teleological principle to work, the universe must contain, in addition to the familiar physical laws, laws that are “biased towards the marvelous,(p. 92)” since the very appearance of any kind of life is marvelous. While Darwinian evolution depends on a long series of accidents, Nagel’s theory posits that each successive stage of evolution must have a higher probability toward certain outcomes, namely the production of beings that are capable of understanding themselves and the universe.(p 93) Man is thus the product of the universe’s drive to self-understanding.
The Darwinists, I suspect, will have as much respect for Nagel’s teleology as they do for Intelligent Design’s interventionism. I doubt if they will make a serious attempt to respond to his critiques; their efforts will be the same as with the Intelligent Design theory: to simply exclude it from the debate. But leaving aside the Darwinists, there are two critiques of this theory that occur to me. The first arises from the difficulty of positing an “atheistic” teleology. Teleology is an Aristotelian idea that things have a natural purpose and direction; an idea bound up with intentionality, and intentionality is a quality of rational beings. To propose that things have a purpose without intention, that is, without a being who intends this purpose, is rather a stretch, and Nagel himself recognizes the problem.
The second problem is that Nagel seems to believe that there is some unified set of beliefs called “theism.” In fact nothing of the kind exists. The various “theisms” are as different from each other as they are from atheism. Hence, there is no “theism” that may be opposed to scientific rationality. On the contrary, the very notion of an intelligible universe, the foundation of science, is an artifact of science’s
Christian roots in the Middle Ages; a rational God creates a rational universe, one that rational creatures may understand.
Note that while this is the stance of Christianity, it is not the stance of religions in general. For most religions, the world depends entirely on the will of Heaven; it rains because God, or some god, wills it to rain; no further explanation is required, and perhaps not possible. The Christian retains the idea of God as the final cause of the rain, but insists that there are intelligible formal, instrumental, and material causes as well, and that these causes can, in principle, be known. This goes a long way towards explaining why science developed in the West, even though the East had great engineers, astronomers, and mathematicians while Europe was still a collection of mud huts. For the medieval scientist, knowledge of the world was knowledge of the world’s God. But after the “Enlightenment” (so-called), knowledge of the natural world would make god unnecessary. He would be confined to the gaps in our knowledge, and as our knowledge expanded, God would be squeezed out.
This implies that science is, eventually, a theory of everything. Science is constantly on the verge of this theory, but never quite gets there. Indeed, just as they are about to grasp it all, it all slips away. For example, in the 1890’s Lord Kelvin, the most prominent physicist of his day, predicted that physics was about to become a complete theory, with only a few minor problems to be solved, those associated with heat and radiation. Of course, these “minor problems” became quantum mechanics. We are on the verge of another “Theory of Everything,” which I suspect will lead, as it always does, to a new starting point for new realms of science.
The Christian is not surprised by this, since science is an exploration of the infinite work of an infinite God. There is no final point, no complete theory. Rather, the world will always reveal new wonders for those who gaze at it in wonder. We have no method, at present, of detecting Nagel’s teleological principles in matter. But then, we had no way of detecting the quanta before we looked for it. It is the right question that brings the right answer. If—as I suspect—Nagel is proposing the right questions, we will find this teleological bias in the laws of nature. And if the proponents of Intelligent Design are at all intelligent, they will adopt this proposal as their own, and not be content with a black box labeled “miracles,” any more than they are content with Darwin’s black box.
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at 8:23 AM
Great article! There is still a good bit of confusion regarding evolutionary theory and what a Christians is to make of it all. Thank you for your thoughts on the subject.
at 9:28 AM
Excellent piece. The materialist scientist presupposes uniformitarianism with regard to natural laws, which in turn presupposes Deism, which in itself is actually self-contradictory as you pointed out with this excellent statement: “There are simply no ‘simple’ life forms with which we may locate a simple ‘beginning.’ Indeed, the distance between ‘nothing’ and amoeba is far greater than the distance between amoeba and man. This is to say, evolution is mostly complete by the time it starts.”
Indeed, orthodox Christianity presupposes a sovereign God, sovereign also over the laws of nature. Catastrophism (or Interventionism) is the only Christian view of natural history.
at 12:04 PM
I am almost always sure that when an article uses the term “Darwinists” it will not be worth reading. I can’t say this article challenged that observation.
at 1:46 PM
It would indeed be a new starting point and open new realms of science to discover a built-in or law of intentionality in the material universe.
I am confused, however, by your critique of Intelligent Design proponents being “content with a black box labeled “miracles”". IT leads me to believe you are equating ID with creationism. A common error, but an error none the less.
at 5:00 PM
Meghan, why is the article not worth reading?
at 10:14 PM
Good article. I also agree with the comment above about Intelligent Design. It simply proposes that it is possible rationally to detect design in nature, but, as far as I know, does not posit how the design came to be in the first place.
Further, as a creationist myself, I don’t see any reason we can’t be open to the possibility that while of course there are natural laws and processes we should study, why couldn’t God have created everything in the beginning through a supernatural act, a miracle? I don’t see any reason why this possibility can or should be excluded a priori. It certainly doesn’t therefore mean that the universe as it operates now does so via intelligible laws.
at 4:01 PM
For the record, Creationism is the belief in a literal interpretation of the creation account in Genesis, and maintains Earth and the universe is around 6000 years old. This is the position of young Earth creationists.
Old Earth creationists agree with the overwhelming scientific evidence Earth is about 4.5 billion years old and the universe came into existence about 13 billion years ago. However, they maintain this was the act of a creator, not random chance.
ID can accomodate old Earth creationism, but not young Earth creationism. Also, some old Earth creationists are Darwinists. However, Darwinism doesn’t really leave room for God.
at 7:45 PM
Why not worth reading? As is typical in these kinds of articles, there seems to be a pretty vague idea of what evolutionary theory (“Darwinism” isn’t a scientific theory, I don’t know what it is supposed to be) actually says. A good clue is that it confuses or conflates evolutionary theory with ideas and hypotheses about abiogenesis which is a different area of study. Evolutionary theory doesn’t address the origins of life.
Going on to use “chance” in a rather vague way (I am quite sure no scientists think “chance” means “without cause”, and to say the will to live is self evident, without even describing what such a thing would look like or is comprised of, doesn’t help.
at 8:06 PM
Wow! A theory posited on “survival of the fittest” has no idea of “what such a thing would look like.” Interesting. And there was no conflation of the origins of life with evolutionary theory (one type of which is called “Darwinism”) but merely the factual observation that there is no “simple” life form from which everything could evolve; by the time we meet life, it is already irreducibly complex.
at 7:37 AM
Meghan,
While Darwin may not have addressed origins, his successors, at least the prominent ones, certainly have drawn at least on conclusion on that point, and they have expended a lot of time, energy, and money on trying to prove it and to not only ridicule, but shut down any discussion contrary to that conclusion. If you would like to hear them speak for themselves on this point, I recommend you watch Ben Stein’s, “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.”
at 12:09 PM
Just as “creationist” and “creationism” are often misapplied, so is “evolution”. People have different interpretations of term, and defenders of “Darwinism” often use these meaning interchangably to ridicule their opponents.
Evolution can mean change over time. Almost no one would disagree living things change over time. Humans cause anilmals to change over time through selective breeding. Likewise, changes in the environment can have the same effect. No one seriously argues this point, but defenders of Darwinian evolution often accuse its detractors of doing just that.
Evolution can also mean the development of whole new species, families, classes, etc. from pre-existing species. This is what Darwin proposed and claimed to have proven in “On the Origin of Species”.
Evolution can also apply to abiogenisis: the combination of materials in the so-called “primordial soap”. I do not think Darwin made any claims about abiogenesis, but neo-Darwinists certainly do.
Having taught science in the rural South, I have had to fight battles with creationists and Darwinists. Neither of the later two definitions of evolution given above have any scientific evidence to back them up. In fact, almost all the evidence gathered over the past 150 years or so since Darwin published his theory have argued againist it rather than for it.
Likewise, scientific evidence for yourng Earth creationism does not exist. All the evidence points to an earth 4.5 billion years old. To believe in a young Earth is to believe God deliberatley tried to decieve us. I don’t buy it.
And yes, Meghan, while “random” and “chance” are two more words used interchangably when the shlouldn’t, scientists to think the Big Bang was a random event which occured “without cause”. To believe otherwise admits the some sort of “laws of nature” existed prior to nature. The work around is to assume ALL possible universes with ALL possible combinations of the “laws of nature” came into existence. But that leads into the “fine tuning of the universe”, which is one of the most powerful arguements for intelligent design.
at 5:02 PM
This is a pretty good video I found a few years ago in which a Thomist explains why he refused to attend an ID conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qwsln6judg. There’s far more to these questions than the usual framing of “people who believe in a purely material explanation vs. people who believe in a creator” would have us think. I don’t recall specifically if this video addresses it, but I would point out that even the typical ID argument about irreducible complexity does not help us understand what life is because it does not reject the modern theory of matter in favor of hylomorphism, to point to just one major limitation of the contemporary debate.
at 8:50 PM
Doug – what I am objecting to – and I think your comment alludes to it – is really sloppy writing, sloppy definitions, sloppy science. Darwinist is a term that is so broad as to be useless for a serious criticism. Does it mean scientific materialists? People who believe in evolution, or evolution between what we define as species? Does it include people who go beyond what Darwin hypothesized, or evolutionary ideas that contradict his thoughts? Just what is it that they are criticizing? One theory, a set of ideas held together?
Evolution should NOT be used to apply to abiogenisis if you want to be clear and accurate about the science. There is a relationship between the two ideas, but it is incorrect to conflate them, including when some scientists do it. That doesn’t make it ok for Christians to make the same mistakes and only compounds lack of clarity. The fact that popular literature does it isn’t a good reason either.
I am also extremely surprised by the generalizations being made about “what scientists believe”. Some scientists believe all kinds of things – that doesn’t make those beliefs “what science says.” Many scientists who support evolutionary theory are not people who would say that the Big Bang was caused by random chance, or nothing. (Not that the Big Bang has much to do with Darwin either.) The overall comment of science has been that it is impossible to say anything about what happened before the Big Bang because we have no access to data or evidence among other things. Although it seems that recently some have concluded that in fact gravity may have existed before the Big Bang, which is clearly not the same as saying it was caused by chance, or nothing. And there are others looking at issues of how and why the Big Bang happened in other directions.
I am not inclined to believe that all scientists are looking to suppress that kind of idea in some kind of conspiracy, and that seems to be the common implication in these kinds of articles. And I think that is possible because of this vague categories like “Darwinism” and generalizations about what scientists believe.
These things do not convince people to give intelligent design a serious look, it only makes them think that here is someone else who doesn’t really know what the science says making claims. Using the term Darwinist has a similar effect, because 90% of the time it is used negatively by American Christian fundamentalists.
at 9:08 PM
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is not any kind of serious look at anything. I don’t think I can really say what kind of thing it is – pretty comparable to a Michael Moore film though.
I have to say I am surprised to see a recommendation for that particular film in a Catholic publication. Although American Catholicism seems to be heavily influenced by Protestant fundamentalism at times.
Does the Distributist Review have some kind of science editor who actually knows something about science? Maybe someone who has a background in the philosophy of science? There is something to be said for sticking to topics you can do well, especially if you are hoping to convince people to take your main mission (the promotion of distributism, I thought) seriously.
at 10:00 PM
I don’t see any actual objection in all this, save the heroic effort to find an objection without stating it. The closest thing I see is a claim that Darwinists aren’t concerned with the origins of life (not quite true) and that chance is conflated with random (the words are synonymous.) Beyond that, its the “these intelligent design people don’t understand science” line. But as to the issues, there is no attempt to deal with them. No attempt, for example, how consciousness might be reduced to matter, or how it might emerge in any way that could do anything but cast doubts on its own premises.
It is precisely as I said in the article: At no stage in the emergence of the purely mental can Darwinism give us an account that is in any way probable; it can only assert the brute fact that consciousness does exist and then by brute force exclude any but a materialist explanation.
at 10:59 PM
Scientists that study consciousness are mostly in neuroscience. That field has produced a fair bit of interesting material, but as far as I know it hasn’t produced any one accepted understanding of how consciousness works, much less how it came to be.
Are you suggesting though that the theory of evolution fails because it does not fully account for consciousness? Consciousness isn’t really directly the subject of evolutionary theory although there are evolutionary hypotheses about consciousness.
But are you really saying that a scientific theory that fails to account for every aspect of a subject is an inadequate theory?
If you want to talk about scientific reductionism, or materialism, there is lots of ground to criticize it, it destroys science itself as a method, which is a lot more fundamental a problem than any deficits it creates in evolutionary theory.
But what you are doing here is using the ambiguous term “Darwinist”, which does not always mean materialism at all, and then we have in the comments implications about conspiracies among the scientific community (many of whom are by no means materialists.)
at 11:20 PM
“Are you suggesting though that the theory of evolution fails because it does not fully account for consciousness?” Yes.
“But are you really saying that a scientific theory that fails to account for every aspect of a subject is an inadequate theory?” Obviously, yes. By definition it would be inadequate. Are you saying that a science that doesn’t explain all the phenomenon in its domain IS an adequate science?
And yes, “Darwinist” means materialist. If you have any literature to the contrary, I will be more than happy to review it. But what you present here is hardly convincing. All you have presented so far is precisely the very scorn which Nagel points out that Darwinists have leveled at dissenters, without bothering to answer their legitimate concerns. It should be possible to answer Nagel in a reasonable way, if reason were the issue. But it never seems to be. The answer is always precisely what we see here: “Y’all just don’t know science like we do.” Perhaps not. Enlighten us.
at 8:43 AM
Meghan,
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is a serious look at the attitude leading scientists have toward one possibility of origins. And what are origins? The cause of existence itself.
Philosophy of Science: Science is the search for causes. The scientist applies fundamental principles of reason to facts in order to reach a conclusion about the cause of the fact. Empirical sciences, because they are limited to their field, only look to proximate causes for the facts as they relate to their specific field.
Unfortunately, many scientists have forgotten this and declare conclustions which are outside of their field. For example, doctors and biologists who declare death before putrification has started – based on the denial of the soul and its function. Another example are all of those “scientists,” recorded in the movie you claim is not serious, stating that just about any reason other than God is the explanation for origins.
The problem I have with evolutionists, and what you seem to ignore, is that they make claims about consciousness without explaining it. They make claims about the origins of life itself and not just about how life supposedly went from one form to another. They don’t bother explaining how one species is able to pass on to another that which is does not posses – except by throwing out their all-purpose hammer: mutation.
Yes, mutation exists. Biologists have determined that it is most likely that we all have a common ancestry that was black skinned. The reason we don’t all have black skin now is mutation. However, in this case, the originator failed to pass on what it had. My skin has all of the proper organs to produce a dark color, but mutation has made that defective. This is a scientifically sound explanation that conforms to the fundamental principle of reason which states that something cannot pass on or give to itself what it does not already posses. However evolutionary scientists claim that mutation has given descendents powers and abilities the ancestors didn’t have. When the arugument of gradual mutation didn’t work out, they decided it must have been sudden mutation. They simply do not accept any other possibility – even when presented by other scientists.
at 6:27 AM
All, I want to throw out a possible connection that came to me while reading Germs, Guns, and Steel by Jared Diamond. It seems that biological evolution and social evolution are two studies that weave themselves together but the overall goal or direction of both is for a body or organism to flourish. The environment allows organisms to flourish and the individual flourishes equally and corporately from the environment. This strikes me as very Thomistic, in that natural law and morality are the behaviors which allow us to flourish or at least create an environment which we may flourish. Could there be a connection between the behaviors that are encouraged through reason and revelation that play within the order of societal and biological evolution? Is morality the ideas which when practiced will allow a society or organism to evolve in the direction of maximized harmony? Is immoral behavior the actions that slow our growth both is a spiritual and biological sense toward a greater identity? Could we biologically and socially prove that the righteous will inherit the earth? Please respond.
at 1:14 PM
Doug, I don’t buy 4.5 million years. Then the people who wrote the Martyrology are deceived. The dating methods are full of flaws. I firmly believe in an Earth age of about less than 10,000 years old. There is no proof for a 4.5 million year old earth, and those who say so use evidence wrongly or are too biased, IMHO.
at 1:14 PM
A great book on the age of the Earth is Gerald Keane’s “Creation Rediscovered.”
at 5:59 PM
Paul, Doug said 4.5 BILLION, not million. An earth age of no more than ten thousand years would mean all those fossils of dinosaurs would make the Earth very crowded its first few thousand years.
Adam, I’m inclined to think that the attempted marriage of a theory based on chance and one relying on a creator is bound to be an unhappy one.
Viking
at 6:29 PM
My mistake on quoting Doug. And as for your objection, I really think it specious, because Noah’s Flood (yes, I believe it was worldwide flood) would create the conditions that would make Earth look like it’s been there billions of years.
at 6:30 PM
And would cause all those “dinosaur” fossils as well.
at 6:34 AM
Adam,
It seems like an interesting theory, but remember that biological evolution is bound by the laws of nature. Societal evolution is a rational process, but “rational,” in this instance, does not imply “correct” thinking. Man is the only rational animal, and therefore the only animal who establishes a society and can change its form. All other animals are not rational and live in groups according to instinct. I know that it has become common to refer to animal groups as societies, but that is really not a proper use of the term.
Maybe I’m not correctly understanding your point, but it seems to me that, because of man’s free will, society can change in a way that combats not only intellectual flourishing, but biological flourishing as well.
at 3:59 PM
If all the layers of fossils were alive at one time, it would have been a very crowded planet indeed. One wonders why so many familiar animals are mentioned in ancient literature, but none of the more exotic ones. It seems to me that the T. Rex would get a mention here and there and the pterodactyl might have drawn a comment or two.
at 10:14 PM
Mr. Medaille,
Of course we won’t find mention of “T-Rex” in ancient documents, because they didn’t call the creature “T-Rex”. On the other hand, dragons or similar creatures are pretty universal feature of the stories told by various cultures all over the world. Where did the idea come from? Flood stories are also told by various cultures throughout the world. Some try to use that fact to discredit the Bible claiming Genesis is just a knock-off of some pagan myth. An alternative explanation is that….a global flood happened.
God bless and have a great day.
at 10:17 PM
I’d also question the assertion that the fossil record points to an earth that would be too crowded. The number of fossils, especially of large animals, is really very small. Most of what we see in museums are copies, not real bones. I’m pretty sure you can count the number of T-Rex skeletons found on your fingers. In any case the number or fossilized creatures we know of are far less than the number of living creatures who inhabit the earth today.
Pax Christi
at 10:46 PM
I guess there were too few to find two to get into the ark.
at 11:05 PM
Mr. Medaille, what exactly is your point? That God couldn’t find the dinosaurs? There are very few giant Pandas in the world today that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. There is exactly one of me and one of you. That doesn’t mean that we don’t exist.
Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that the world would have been too crowded in the past if it is 6,000-10,000 years old?
Pax Christi
at 9:58 PM
I believe it was our current Pope who said, “Faith without reason is superstition”?
Dan and Paul, there is no reason to believe in a 10,000 year old Earth unless you are a Biblical literalist, in which case it is doubtful you are open to reasoned arguement on the subject. However, there is overwhelming, connected evidence Earth is much older than 10,000 years.
For example, the Grand Canyon would have taken millions of years to be cut through layers of rock. Those layers would have also taken millions of years to form before they could be cut through.
Similarly, light travels through space at a fixed, known speed (the speed of light). If Creation came into existance only 10,000 years ago, light from objects more than 10,000 light years away would not have reached Earth yet. However, we see objects whose distance we have measured using basic geometry to hundreds of thousands of light years away.
Could God have created the Grand Canyon as it is? Yes. He could also have created the light from stars “in transit” so it would alreay be here. But that arguement leads to a God who deceives, and that is not my God. Nor do I think He is yours.
at 10:28 PM
I am indeed a Bible literalist, concerning events in the Bible. Doug, I must say you are basically taken in by the religion of Scientism, which basically states scientists are always correct concerning their conclusions, even though they are some of the worst offenders of being objective.
What scientific evidence can you show that the Grand Canyon was formed from millions of years? I believe the evidence to the contrary, that it was formed in a great upheaval because of the Global Flood (unless you believe Scripture lied or wasn’t literal concerning that).
Modern science has made many assumptions, many of them unprovable and stemming from philosophical and religious prejudices or just plain false.
at 10:29 PM
As for geometry, the speed of light, etc., many of those assumptions have been questioned, even by reputable scientists. Some believe the speed of light isn’t constant, and that it is actually decaying.
at 7:37 AM
“Doug, I must say you are basically taken in by the religion of Scientism, which basically states scientists are always correct concerning their conclusions, even though they are some of the worst offenders of being objective.”
Paul, I am deeply offended by your accusation, but not suprised. I am a devout Catholic. I DO NOT believe scientists are always right concerning their conclusions. I would not be a supporter of Inetelligent Design if I did. Nor was I a supporter of global warming. (In fact, I was officially reprimanded as a science teacher for questioning gloabal warming. I was accused of mixing politics with science.)
A literal interpretation of scripture is inconsistent with Catholic theology. Both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote of the need to understand scripture in the context it was written.
“Modern science has made many assumptions, many of them unprovable and stemming from philosophical and religious prejudices or just plain false.”
I agree. I think this is the point David was making above. But the same is true of biblical creationism.
at 10:22 AM
Just a thought concerning the evidence for an old earth vs. a new earth: I live in a mostly protected part of the Pacific Northwest. In our National Park is Merrymere Falls, what USED to be an impressive amount of water crashing down at an impressive speed resulting on impressive splashing and mist at the upper viewing levels. I mean, standing by the top you got soaked! We used to go up all the time when I was a kid. 15 years later, the erosion has made it a little dribble of a thing by comparison. (If you are impressed by the more recent photos on the internet, all I can say is that is nothing) There is nothing in this area to speed up erosion, as it is completely protected. It is simply this rate as it is in this spot. So I would think that the earth *could* be a young earth, and some of what we see as *excessive* damage/erosion/etc is really the “real time” erosion, but we have superimposed a number someone came up with (and was probably accurate for what they were studying) at some point over the whole history of earth. And I think the behemoth in Job sounds a lot like my favorite dinosaur. These are just observations. In the end, I’m pretty sure the test won’t be on my creation/evolution beliefs. :) Some good thoughts to ponder here today.
at 10:41 AM
Doug, I am not surprised by your accusations of Biblical creationism making false assumptions. But consider this: in a t-rex bone, there was still blood vessels and blood cells inside the bone. If the earth and the fossils were as old as you say and evolutionists, explain how there can be seen in a microscope these things. It is really inconsistent not to believe in evolutionism and yet believe in a old earth. It really is picking and choosing (even if unconsciously) what you believe of modern science, whether you like it or not.
Here is a good article concerning the failure of the ID movement on the age of the earth: http://www.kolbecenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311:question-of-time&catid=10:articles-and-essays&Itemid=74
at 11:08 AM
The constant belief of the Catholic Church, at least before Darwin, was that the Earth was less than 10,000 years old. Even using St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, no Church Father nor medieval theologian posited the absurd age of 4.5 billion years. I am not about to dump their interpretation for the sake of atheist scientists, who first trumpeted the old age of the earth and others, including unfortunately Catholics who followed them.
at 11:59 AM
In 2008, the Pontifical Academy of Science appeared to take the position that the earth is at least 2 billion years old.
http://www.casinapioiv.va/content/dam/accademia/pdf/es33.pdf
at 4:14 PM
Paul,
The position of the Church has always been that the study of the natural world reveals God, who created it. This is why the Church has always been very careful about making infallible interpretations about specific passages of scripture. This is why the Church was open to heliocentrism when all Protestant churches were not. The idea that the Sun orbited the Earth was the common interpretation, but had never been infallibly declared. Remember that Gallileo did not get in trouble with the Church for saying the Earth orbited the Sun, he was invited to teach at the Church-run university in Rome for proving that there were moons orbiting Jupiter.
Until that time, the prevailing belief among scientists was that there could not be multiple orbital systems. There was one center of the universe and everything in the universe orbited that center. The “trump card” the terracentrists used to shut down all debate with the heliocentrists was the moon. It was obvious that the moon orbited the Earth and, since everything orbited the center of the universe, that proved that the Earth was at the center and the Sun must orbit it. Gallileo blew that argument out of the water and was celebrated at the University in Rome for it.
Gallileo got in trouble because he was accused of teaching that the Bible contained error. This, and not heliocentrism, was the heresy for which he was convicted. The headlines from a few years ago that the Church finally “admitted” Gallileo was right were false. It had been proven that the document that convicted Gallileo was actually a forgery. As far as the controversy between heliocentrism and terracentrism went, that was an argument between two camps of astronomers – and the Church waited for the outcome. In this, she showed her wisdom because not only were the terracentrists wrong, but so were the heliocentrists (even if they were more correct than the terracentrists).
In the case of the age of the Earth, the Church is, once again, letting science settle the issue. The historical interpretations of the age of the Earth were never infallibly declared. Science has a long way to go to settle this issue. Many of the arguments are based on findings that have been called into question. Carbon dating frequently produces results that are not only varying, but extremely so. Certain assumptions about the rate of decay and the half-life of certain elements could be wrong. Thus, while there is certainly room to question the current claims about the age of the Earth, the Church holds no official position which must be accepted by all Catholics everywhere and for all time.
The main problem with the Theory of Evolution is not theological, it is not based on the idea that it contradicts traditional interpretations of Scripture, it is with the scientific process itself – the assumptions that are treated as proven facts and the conclusions that go beyond the scientific field of those making them.
at 11:12 PM
The problem is modern “science” is making all sorts of unwarranted assumptions. And the one thing one seems to forget is that all the Church Fathers believed in the literal reading of the first chapters of Genesis, whose teachings cannot be cast aside lightly, according to Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus, especially concerning the age of the earth. Before the 1800s, Catholics accepted a young earth until the flashy and showy gimmicks of evolutionists and uniformitarians convinced them otherwise.
As for Galileo, I won’t go into that, but his condemnation was NOT for stating the Bible was full of error, BUT for TWO things. If you would read the text concerning his condemnation, you will see that so!
at 11:41 PM
As for heliocentrism, I dispute that the Church was open to it; maybe a few Churchmen here and there and many university scholars, but not the Popes and certainly not St. Robert Bellarmine. But that is going into another topic, and I won’t go any further into it.
at 7:40 AM
Paul,
Yes, of course the Church Fathers beleived in a literal reading of Genesis. We are, to this day, required to accept a literal interpretation of Scripture, but, unlike the Protestants of Gallileo’s day (and some Protestants today), that obligation is not absolute. St. Augustine taught that, as God cannot be self-contradicting, the laws of nature reveal truths about God which cannot be contradicted.
In regard to interpreting passages of Scripture, there are very few verses which have been infallibly interpreted – and all of those passages have to do with teachings of faith and morals. In regard to the passage of Joshua, which was at the center of the Gallileo controversy, there were two issues of interpretation at hand, the first was the miracle of stopping the Sun and Moon in the sky, the second was the Earth as center of the universe. Heliocentrism did not contradict the first, but did the second. The first is a matter of faith, the second is not. Certainly, spurred on by Protestant accusations that Catholics didn’t believe in the Bible, there were lots of clergy who opposed even the discussion of Heliocentrism, but your claim that the Church was not open to it is belied by the facts.
Heliocentrism was not only openly discussed, but studied at the Church run universities and many of its advocates were priest astronomers. Gallileo was granted an audience with the Pope to explain his discoveries and he reported that he was well received. The limitation that the Church put on Heliocentrism is that it could only be discussed as a theory among the astronomers and could not be taught in classes. Gallileo’s punnishment for being convicted of heresy was unique for its time. He was put under house arrest, he was allowed to continue his astronomical studies and to discuss them with his fellow astronomers. He could not teach or speak publically. Other than that, he was allowed a servant and every comfort that fit within the limitations of his sentence. Yet, other heretics in both Catholic and Protestant countries were put to death.
These limitations were not doctrinal, they were practical. First, heliocentrism was opposed by the overwhelming majority of astronomers. It was a new theory and was not accepted by the scientific community of that time. Second, if it turned out to be true, the long standing interpretation of certain passages of Scripture would have to be reevaluated. This was acceptable because the matter at hand was not an issue of faith or morals. It followed the teaching of St. Augustine who taught that our interpretation of Scripture must be reevaluated when observations of nature contradict it. It followed St. Aquinas who expanded on Augustine’s teaching, “First, the truth of Scripture must be held inviolable. Secondly, when there are different ways of explaining Scriptural text, no particular explanation should be held so rigidly that, if convincing arguments show it to be false, anyone dare to insist that it still is the definitive sense of the text. Otherwise, unbelievers will scorn the Sacred Scripture, and the way of faith will be closed to them.”
Don’t misunderstand me, Paul. I am not arguing against the Young Earth interpretation. I pointed out several problems with modern science’s assumptions when making claims about the age of the Earth. I am simply pointing out that the Catholic Church has always been very careful about making infallible interpretations of Scripture outside of the realm of what it reveals about God and how we are to act as moral beings. God cannot contradict himself. What he has revealed in Scripture cannot contract what he reveals in nature. If we see a contradiction, the it is we who have made the error of interpretation – either of scripture, or of nature.
at 8:57 AM
I disagree with your implication that because it was discussed in the universities, heliocentrism was allowed. The Pope who condemned Galileo himself stated Galileo’s theories were bad doctrine, errors at the least that would dethrone Holy Scripture. And it says exactly so in the decree of Galileo’s condemnation. And I also dispute that geocentrism was proven wrong. But I as I said I won’t go into that. Many of those priest “astronomers” dared to question Sacred Scripture. There are quite a few books covering this issue thoroughly, showing the prejudices of scientists even as “esteemed” as Copernicus.
I will just say unlike that accepted myth, scientists are hardly objective, being influenced by their philosophical and religious prejudices. In fact, they are the most stubborn in their opinions, don’t even change their theories even when new discoveries expose big flaws in their system and other such dishonest behavior.
at 8:59 AM
As for the Fathers, aren’t we to hold as doctrine, even if not de fide, the unanimous consent of them or nearly unanimous, such as concerning Genesis? Not one ever believed in more than a 10,000 year old earth. I agree there is room for flexibility here, but not so much IMHO as to include a 4.5 billion year-old earth.
at 11:37 AM
Paul,
Gallileo’s decree of condemnation is not an infallible document. The pope didn’t make the declaration about heliocentrism in an infallible manner. Yes, we are to accept the unanimous consent of the Fathers in all matters of faith and morals, but we are discussing a matter of natural science and the Church has never claimed infallibility in that field. All she claims about natural science is that it cannot contradict the Faith (and it has never successfully done so). God created nature. It is part of his revelation of himself to us, along with the Faith. Therefore, science and the Faith can never be at odds, but we need to take care about what is “de fide” and what is not.
Genesis contains no errors – it is the inspired Word of God – but that does not mean that our interpretation of every passage (or even those of the Fathers) is infallible. Genesis clearly teaches that God created the entire universe from nothing by an act of divine will. Genesis clearly teaches that God directed creation in a way that the existence of all things in the universe are only there by his specific intent (not just random events). Genesis clearly teaches that God created all of the creatures in the universe. Genesis clearly teaches that God created man (Adam) and then, from Adam, Eve, and that the entire human race originated with them.
What is not clear, however, is whether the phrase, “The evening came and the morning followed. The first day,” means a 24 hour day even before God had divided the day and the night and set the Earth in its place within the universe He created. It is entirely possible that this is an idiomatic expression, the meaning of which is lost to us today but which would have been understood by the Israelites of 5000 years ago. It is entirely possible that it does, in fact, mean a 24 hour day and that the current understanding of science is based on flawed assumptions. It is entirely possible that it means an unspecified era of time.
It does not make sense to say that we have to accept something as doctrine, but not as “de fide.” Doctrine is about the Faith and it absolutely cannot change – ever. New conclusions can be drawn, but those must be consistent with already existing doctrine understood in the same sense as was always held. Even before it was defined by Vatican I, the doctrine of infallibility only applied to a specific category of teaching and only in certain circumstances. Therefore, in matters of material sciences, we do not have to accept even the unanimous consent of the Fathers. Otherwise, we would have to believe many false things about many things (like biology and human reproduction) that science has truly corrected. Yes, we need to be critical of scientists; what you say about them is sadly true for (I believe) the majority of them. We must not lightly toss aside the long-held understanding of the past simply because of a theory.
at 12:54 PM
We Catholics MUST ACCEPT the literal meaning of the Bible interpreted by the Church Father, UNLESS it is absolutely warranted according to Providentissimus Deus. And the Catholic Church upheld that condemnation of Galileo until the early 1800s as doctrine, even though not defined de fide. Saying some belief isn’t doctrine because it isn’t defined de fide doesn’t mean a thing; there are many things accepted as doctrine such as the creation of a soul at conception, that do not meet condition for infallibility and we would be right to condemn those who pretend to be Catholic and yet reject as non-infallible. What about the doctrine of the Assumption? It was defined only in 1950, and yet before that the Popes said any other belief contradicting the Assumption was condemned. All your explanation is just a long-winded way to say theology isn’t the queen of the sciences, and that natural science could brush theology when its “evidence” contradicts the doctrines of theology. If the Church was wrong in condemning Galileo, how would She right in other things? We are yielding to men whose avowed purpose is take God out of the science.
This site was only to defend Distributism, not to defend modern “science” even in a round-about way. I will talk no more on the subject, but bringing up issues not connected to the topic of this website hurts this site, to be honest.
at 6:23 PM
Paul,
You are claiming I said something I explicitly contradicted. Look at every example you gave of what we must accept. The creation of a soul at conception and the assumption are matters of faith and do not touch upon the natural sciences. Even though the science of metaphysics and philosophical psychology prove the existence of the soul, it cannot prove the moment of its creation. You say that I have said that natural science can brush away theology. That is incorrect. I did not say it and I explicitly reject it here and now. However, theology cannot contradict the natural sciences because God is the source for both.
I have merely pointed out that specific condemnations were never made in an infallible manner, that the infallibility of the Church is – by her own declaration – limited to faith and morals, and that the Church embraces actually proven evidence of the natural sciences even when doing so means re-evaluating long standing interpretations that do not touch upon areas where the Church has not made any infallible teaching.
You ask how the Church could be right in other things if she was wrong to condemn Gallileo. If the condemnation was over a matter outside of the Church’s infallible authority – if the condemnation was only directed to one specific person and not universally applied (the study of heliocentrism continued in the Catholic universities after Gallileo’s condemnation) – then by definition it was not an infallible declaration.
On the other hand, the doctrines about the creation of the soul at the moment of conception, the Assumption, the Imaculate Conception, and the fact that God caused the sun and the moon to stop in the sky as recorded in Joshua, are all matters of faith and not science. Even the stopping of the heavenly bodies are matters of faith because a miracle is something which defies the known laws of nature.
Distributism doesn’t defend modern “science,” and I have not done so in my responses to you. I have merely pointed out that TRUE science cannot contradict the Faith, and I have attempted to explain the teaching of the Church in regard to that. Apparently, I have failed, and for that I apologize to all our readers.
at 8:34 PM
Paul, I was not going to respond to you again because, frankly, I don’t see the point. However, your comment from Sept 27 just got posted, and since you refer to me by name, I feel obligated.
First, there is no inconsistency in rejecting evolution but accepting an old age for Earth. The two are related only in evolution needing an old Earth to give time for “natural selection” to work through random mutations. But as Dr. Stephen C. Meyer demonstrated in his book “Signature in the Cell”, even the presumed 13+ billion years since the Big Bang would be sufficient time for evolution to work its magic.
I found several problems with the article your sited. First, it appears to conflate biological decay with radioactive decay. There is nothing inconsistent with the existance of biological material millions of years old. Entire insects have been preserved in amber deposits. That some microscopic amount of organic material might have survived within a bone otherwise fossilized is not shocking.
Second, the article exploits the longstanding priciple of uniformitarianism in geology. I admit the bias against catastophic explanations is a bias against using the Great Flood, however, most contemporary geolists are well aware catastrophic events have played a part in shaping certain landscapes. However, these are localized events, not global ones. The flood shaping the western badlands resulted from a glacial dam bursting, not the Biblical flood of Noah. The very fact these events are identifiable derives from the variation from uniform processes normally seen.
AS far as uniform sedimentary layers being laid down over a large area, the ocean floor comes to mind. I have seen parts of Texas and the Midwest which are virtually flat for hundreds of square miles.
Finally, arguing as this article does (and as I belive you did earlier concerning the speed of light), that natural laws vary over time presents a problem. Not to intelligent design, but to belief in a rational creation. Unless some evidence exists to demonstrate this variation (and I did not see any given), along with an explanation of how these laws change over time, the ability to explain events becomes impossible. If you cannot predict future events based on passed observations, the universe is irrational. If creation is irrational, the Creator must be as well, and I know this contradicts Catholic theology. God becomes entirely Will, not subject to reason. This is the path down which Islam turned about the time of St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics. Fortunately, we were saved from the same error.
at 12:44 PM
A so-called young earth and rejection of evolution as an explanation for the origins of man are not necessarily related, but there are some things to think about beyond geology.
What is death? Is it part of the entirely good pre-fall creation, or is it a consequence of original sin, Adam’s sin?
If life existed for millions or billions of years before the fall, was it life without death? If fossils predate the existence of man, how did the fossilized creatures die, if death is the consequence of the first man’s sin?
Furthermore, I think the claim that variation in decay rates would require an irrational God is a bit of a reach. Is the rainfall in your are exactly the same amount every year? No. Does that mean God is irrational? No.
The whole, “we can’t think the earth is young because that means God is lying to us” line of argument is a poor one. After all, St. Thomas Aquinas and all the Church Fathers thought the earth was “young”. If the world is in fact “old”, was God lying to them?
In anycase, belief that the 6 days of creation are 6 24 hour natural days, is a perfectly orthodox Catholic position. Six 24 hour days seems to very strongly imply a world that is only thousands of years old.
Pax Christi
at 3:50 PM
@Dan:
This may fall on deaf ears, but. . . .
The amount of annual rainfall is not a fundamental constant of the universe. The speed of light is a fundamental constant of the universe. So is the Universal Gravitational constant, the permetivity of free space, and a couple of dozen others. There is no reason to believe these are changing over time. Some scientists have hypothesized they may be different under very extreme conditions (in a Black Hole or during the first few microseconds after the Big Bang), but these are not the kind of variations that would prove a young Earth.
As far as I am aware, Man’s Fall is not responsible for plants and animals experiencing death. My reading of St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject seems to indicate man did not experience death because of the grace of God. That grace was lost as a result of Adam’s sin.
As far as the first man is concerned, I recall what Chesterton wrote in “The Everlasting Man”. Whoever was responsible for the cave drawings was human, and had a human soul. It is not impossible human-like creatures existed before God made the first man by giving him a human soul.
@John Medaille:
I do not think this is the conversation you intended to evoke when you published this article!
at 4:51 AM
Greetings Doug,
My understanding is that there are a variety of opinions among the Church fathers. Some believe Adam’s sin was only responsible for human death. Others believe Adam’s sin was responsible for all death. I find the latter to be the more reasonable position.
As far as gravity being constant….I don’t claim that variation of gravity is a requirement for the earth to be 6,000-10,000 years old. But I don’t see any reason to believe that it’s impossible for it to vary.
The idea many put forward of human bodies walking around with non-human souls does not seem to fit with anything Thomas or any of the other Fathers and Doctors had to say. Men have human bodies and human souls. Dogs have dog bodies and dog souls. Cats have cat bodies and cat souls. The soul and the body go together.
Pax Christi
at 5:13 AM
I find theistic evolution to an attempt to have one’s cake and eat it too.
The theistic evolutionist attempts to both:
1. Avoid being made fun of by the secular establishment.
2. Be orthodox Catholics.
I think it’s a impossible feat though. Consider that the Church teaches that the first woman (Eve) was created from the first man (Adam). How many evolutionary theories have a woman coming out of a man’s side? None. I think most Catholics who are theistic evolutionists don’t even know the teaching on the creation of the first woman, but many when they do become aware of it, are so emotionally invested in evolution that they simply ignore the teaching. Others, claim to personally assent to the teaching on the creation of Eve, but you will never hear them mention it in conversation- they mute the message of Revelation for the sake of fitting in with the world.
Pax Christi